Paul Kimmage

[The Principal Sheep]

Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero

There's every reason to mention Walsh, especially when talking about journalist(s) loosing credibility but back to this point about Kimmage and rugby which was started in error by an earlier poster, Kimmage certainly broached the subject about drugs in rugby but as far as I'm aware never made any direct connection to Irish rugby, however at no point as he ever tried to suggest that Irish (or any other) rugby is exempt so what is the grievance against him? that he hasn't done more? that he hasn't focused on his home country prior to others? that he makes his name attacking cycling whilst passing on other sports?

 

[Cycle Chic]

he was a pro cyclist not a pro rugby player so of course he has more knowledge of what goes on in the peloton

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Who know when Roche first used epo? Roche used it later with Conconi, but for his 1987 it was probably transfusions. The Tour that year was very long and very hard and very soon after his Giro win.

While I won't argue the likelihood of Roche having used blood bags in the '80s before graduating to EPO in the '90s, the 1987 Q is this: when was the blood taken out? When he was hiding from the media in Dublin? Before the end of the Giro? Early in the Tour?

The follow up Q then is when it went back in: Ventoux? Alpe d'Huez? La Plagne?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So we've switched from "argument from hearsay" in the "Aussie's don't dope" thread, to "Ad Hominem Tu Quoque", the "You too fallacy".

Basically it says that a person's claim is false because it is inconsistent with something else they said, or inconsistent with their actions.

ie because Kimmage didn't call someone / some team out previously, or called people / teams out selectively, his observations of current cycling / rugby etc teams are incorrect.

Clearly this is attacking the person (Kimmage), rather than his current claims that cycling and rugby people and teams are dodgy.

No rational person can deny that rugby and cycling are as dirty as sin, so any other discussion other than these particular claims is silly at best, and fallacious in reality.

Well done to all the people attacking Kimmage, I dare you to attack what he is saying these days, instead of suggesting he should get in his time machine and return to those days with his current level of knowledge and modify his words or stance back then.

Perhaps when you join us back in the real world of present time you can either agree or disagree with his stance and offer some semblance of refuting argument. I won't hold my breath.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

So we've switched from "argument from hearsay" in the "Aussie's don't dope" thread, to "Ad Hominem Tu Quoque", the "You too fallacy".

Basically it says that a person's claim is false because it is inconsistent with something else they said, or inconsistent with their actions.

ie because Kimmage didn't call someone / some team out previously, or called people / teams out selectively, his observations of current cycling / rugby etc teams are incorrect.

Clearly this is attacking the person (Kimmage), rather than his current claims that cycling and rugby people and teams are dodgy.

No rational person can deny that rugby and cycling are as dirty as sin, so any other discussion other than these particular claims is silly at best, and fallacious in reality.

Well done to all the people attacking Kimmage, I dare you to attack what he is saying these days, instead of suggesting he should get in his time machine and return to those days with his current level of knowledge and modify his words or stance back then.

Perhaps when you join us back in the real world of present time you can either agree or disagree with his stance and offer some semblance of refuting argument. I won't hold my breath.

This


..........................

As usual people shoot the messengers. This faux anger at Kimmage is laughable.

 

[gooner]

In case you haven't noticed, we aren't saying this latest phenomenon to drugs in rugby is new to this era and are not dismissing the point about their widespread existence.

Irrespective of what others said, he is a sports journalist who has covered rugby plenty and yet in late 2014 was the first time he decided to question the sport even though there was plenty to go on before that. The same can be said for football, he did plenty of reporting on Irish games during his first stint at the Irish Indo. Little or nothing on football..

Interviewed multiple tennis players and covered Wimbledon's and besides one question to Nadal about Puerto, he has hasn't broached that subject near enough.

Turns up at Ryder Cups and other golf tournaments praising McGinley and Harrington, being the fan with the typewriter he so despises with others, while Greg Norman calling the sports anti-doping procedures disgraceful.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero

Paul Kimmage
In an interesting article on doping, Paul Kimmage notes a recent encounter he had with a former tennis player:
Two weeks ago, at a friend's wedding in Wicklow, I bumped into a former tennis player who would have spent the whole night talking about doping in cycling. But when I suggested his sport was possibly as bad he didn't want to know. There was nothing I could say . . . The ITF's indifference to testing; The top players' miraculous recovery rates; The cover-up of Andre Agassi's positive for methamphetamine in 1997; The association of Luis Del Moral - the Valencia-based doctor who had worked with Armstrong - with the sport; . . . to convince him.

And can you blame him? We've had wall-to-wall coverage of Wimbledon for two weeks now, and some curious games, but not once has the issue of doping been raised. Is there something inherently decent about tennis players?

Indeed. We've seen the exact same attitude from most of the tennis press.

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/2014/07/paul-kimmage.html

a journalist cant just ask a question to Nadal about doping and Puerto - he'd get sued for defamation.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero

and...

“Possibly, and this may sound ridiculous, cycling is one of the cleanest sports left because the controls are full on. But f***ing tennis, I find it nauseating to watch it on TV to see the McEnroes and all the commentators engage in this big love-in. And the bottom line is we are all getting rich here folks, lets not upset the apple-cart.”

good interview here from the Irish post july 2014

http://irishpost.co.uk/paul-kimmage-25-year-anti-doping-crusade-exposing-lance-armstrong-disillusion-tour/

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re:

In case you haven't noticed, we aren't saying this latest phenomenon to drugs in rugby is new to this era and are not dismissing the point about their widespread existence.

Irrespective of what others said, he is a sports journalist who has covered rugby plenty and yet in late 2014 was the first time he decided to question the sport even though there was plenty to go on before that. The same can be said for football, he did plenty of reporting on Irish games during his first stint at the Irish Indo. Little or nothing on football..

Interviewed multiple tennis players and covered Wimbledon's and besides one question to Nadal about Puerto, he has hasn't broached that subject near enough.

Turns up at Ryder Cups and other golf tournaments praising McGinley and Harrington, being the fan with the typewriter he so despises with others, while Greg Norman calling the sports anti-doping procedures disgraceful.

This. You can try to shoot this down, but clearly there are question marks over Kimmage's objectivity. If you choose to position yourself as a staunch, out-spoken anti-doper then you should be more indiscriminate with accusations rather than selecting targets according to some sort of agenda.

Which mirrors exactly what happens in here.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero

found it..2007 interview

In 1996, and for two years until she was exposed, I continued to write those pieces and got a hard time for it. I interviewed [Spanish tennis player] Rafael Nadal two weeks ago in Hamburg. Before I went to meet him I looked into who his trainer was and I tried to get some sort of conclusive evidence that he was in the Operation Puerto files but I couldn?t get my hands on it. All I could do was ask him the question and all he did was give me a not very satisfactory response. It?s not only cycling with me. Whenever there are grounds to ask the question, I do so.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-big-interview-paul-kimmage-88368#PMMA0MdSioFsK2KL.99

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-big-interview-paul-kimmage-88368

 

[gooner]

I don't take much notice either of his criticisms about Sky, The Times and Murdoch when you consider he's working for a Denis O'Brien owned newspaper, a guy who is up to his eyeballs in corruption with bribing politicians and challenging and suppressing the democratic process in this country.

Try writing and criticising as a sports journalist why the FAI are using Denis O'Brien to pay Trappatoni's and O'Neill's wages or his shareholding at Celtic.

Of course he won't touch that as he might put his job in jeopardy and the story wouldn't be published. Just ask Sam Smyth.

 

[gooner]

Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero

found it..2007 interview

In 1996, and for two years until she was exposed, I continued to write those pieces and got a hard time for it. I interviewed [Spanish tennis player] Rafael Nadal two weeks ago in Hamburg. Before I went to meet him I looked into who his trainer was and I tried to get some sort of conclusive evidence that he was in the Operation Puerto files but I couldn?t get my hands on it. All I could do was ask him the question and all he did was give me a not very satisfactory response. It?s not only cycling with me. Whenever there are grounds to ask the question, I do so.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-big-interview-paul-kimmage-88368#PMMA0MdSioFsK2KL.99

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/the-big-interview-paul-kimmage-88368

I did mention that.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re: Re:

This. You can try to shoot this down, but clearly there are question marks over Kimmage's objectivity. If you choose to position yourself as a staunch, out-spoken anti-doper then you should be more indiscriminate with accusations rather than selecting targets according to some sort of agenda.

Which mirrors exactly what happens in here.

This doesn't even make sense, even if it is coming from you?

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

While he says he doesn't know if any Irish rugby players in the past have used performance enhancing drugs, he says it would be naïve to discount the idea.

"You've got to be blind to think that this is going on in France, and Argentina and South Africa and England – because if you look at the anti-doping stats now on the positives recently in England, most of them are rugby union players - they you are going to be a bit naïve to think that we are somehow insulated from that."

"I don't know," he replied if he believed Irish rugby players have doped.

Isn't this exactly the same stance which some on here take about Sky and get constantly abused for?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

This. You can try to shoot this down, but clearly there are question marks over Kimmage's objectivity. If you choose to position yourself as a staunch, out-spoken anti-doper then you should be more indiscriminate with accusations rather than selecting targets according to some sort of agenda.

Which mirrors exactly what happens in here.

This doesn't even make sense, even if it is coming from you?

Discriminate: Discrimination is treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing is perceived to belong to rather than on individual merit.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

This
..........................
As usual people shoot the messengers. This faux anger at Kimmage is laughable.

We are not allowed to say what it looks like.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

indiscriminate: adjective
discriminate: verb

Giving the definition of the verb when asked to explain the use of the adjective.

el feckin oh feckin el

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I don't take much notice either of his criticisms about Sky, The Times and Murdoch when you consider he's working for a Denis O'Brien owned newspaper, a guy who is up to his eyeballs in corruption with bribing politicians and challenging and suppressing the democratic process in this country.

Try writing and criticising as a sports journalist why the FAI are using Denis O'Brien to pay Trappatoni's and O'Neill's wages or his shareholding at Celtic.

Of course he won't touch that as he might put his job in jeopardy and the story wouldn't be published. Just ask Sam Smyth.

So why dont you have a go at john Greene then the sports editor? Maybe Kimmage is pulling his hair out trying to get the independent to do stories on doping in Rugby but DOB has put a block on it.

Have you put your job in jeopardy? Kimmage has done it once. You expect him to do it constantly?

 

[JimmyFingers]

Oh dear, attack the grammar when all else fails.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

In case you haven't noticed, we aren't saying this latest phenomenon to drugs in rugby is new to this era and are not dismissing the point about their widespread existence.

Irrespective of what others said, he is a sports journalist who has covered rugby plenty and yet in late 2014 was the first time he decided to question the sport even though there was plenty to go on before that. The same can be said for football, he did plenty of reporting on Irish games during his first stint at the Irish Indo. Little or nothing on football..

Interviewed multiple tennis players and covered Wimbledon's and besides one question to Nadal about Puerto, he has hasn't broached that subject near enough.

Turns up at Ryder Cups and other golf tournaments praising McGinley and Harrington, being the fan with the typewriter he so despises with others, while Greg Norman calling the sports anti-doping procedures disgraceful.

This reeks of hurt. He hurt your favourite sport so you are angry at Kimmage. Not angry at golf journalists, rugby journalists, Tennis journalists, but angry at Kimmage for telling the truth about cycling.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

While he says he doesn't know if any Irish rugby players in the past have used performance enhancing drugs, he says it would be naïve to discount the idea.

"You've got to be blind to think that this is going on in France, and Argentina and South Africa and England – because if you look at the anti-doping stats now on the positives recently in England, most of them are rugby union players - they you are going to be a bit naïve to think that we are somehow insulated from that."

"I don't know," he replied if he believed Irish rugby players have doped.

Isn't this exactly the same stance which some on here take about Sky and get constantly abused for?

Kimmage works for a newspaper. We dont know if grounds have been out laid for him not to get into any libel.

But keep shooting the guy who did try as compared to hundreds who upheld omerta for a free bidon........

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Oh dear, attack the grammar when all else fails.

Jimmy you failed a long time ago. Attacks on kimmage are pathetic. Try having a go at those who never wrote a word in anger, the true fans with typewriters before having a go at a guy who has more than tried to do something about exposing cheats in sport.

 

[Bernie's eyesore]

Re: Re:

While he says he doesn't know if any Irish rugby players in the past have used performance enhancing drugs, he says it would be naïve to discount the idea.

"You've got to be blind to think that this is going on in France, and Argentina and South Africa and England – because if you look at the anti-doping stats now on the positives recently in England, most of them are rugby union players - they you are going to be a bit naïve to think that we are somehow insulated from that."

"I don't know," he replied if he believed Irish rugby players have doped.

Isn't this exactly the same stance which some on here take about Sky and get constantly abused for?

Kimmage works for a newspaper. We dont know if grounds have been out laid for him not to get into any libel.

But keep shooting the guy who did try as compared to hundreds who upheld omerta for a free bidon........

Surprising to see you doing a complete about turn after years of being critical of the British press for not outing Sky.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Re: Re:

Oh dear, attack the grammar when all else fails.

Jimmy you failed a long time ago. Attacks on kimmage are pathetic. Try having a go at those who never wrote a word in anger, the true fans with typewriters before having a go at a guy who has more than tried to do something about exposing cheats in sport.

That's your opinion. I don't share it. I think this debate has shown Kimmage not to be objective in his accusations. You don't like it so are doing your best to make as much noise as possible to drown out any criticism of Precious Paul. I applaud his crusade against drugs cheats, but think he should be less selective about who he goes after. It's a fairly simple point.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

In case you haven't noticed, we aren't saying this latest phenomenon to drugs in rugby is new to this era and are not dismissing the point about their widespread existence.

Irrespective of what others said, he is a sports journalist who has covered rugby plenty and yet in late 2014 was the first time he decided to question the sport even though there was plenty to go on before that. The same can be said for football, he did plenty of reporting on Irish games during his first stint at the Irish Indo. Little or nothing on football..

Interviewed multiple tennis players and covered Wimbledon's and besides one question to Nadal about Puerto, he has hasn't broached that subject near enough.

Turns up at Ryder Cups and other golf tournaments praising McGinley and Harrington, being the fan with the typewriter he so despises with others, while Greg Norman calling the sports anti-doping procedures disgraceful.

This reeks of hurt. He hurt your favourite sport so you are angry at Kimmage. Not angry at golf journalists, rugby journalists, Tennis journalists, but angry at Kimmage for telling the truth about cycling.

Football is my favourite sport, yet one of the sports that I'm saying he hasn't done enough with is?