Re: Re:
Yes that's one team..can't see any others queuing up to give data away..
Robert21 said:
Yes that's one team..can't see any others queuing up to give data away..
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Re: Re:
No but if you have a rider with a similar V02 max to Lemond (you're example) a team can train him more scientifically and get better results...how a team does this is their competitive edge and no one else's.
gillan1969 said:
No but if you have a rider with a similar V02 max to Lemond (you're example) a team can train him more scientifically and get better results...how a team does this is their competitive edge and no one else's.
Re: Re:
What was the state of physiology in the 80's? What have we discover since?
And whos is the rider similar to Lemond?
Probably. But do you believe that 80's Science was far behind today's? We don't have to dismiss the fact that "better Science" argument is today use to hide doping.cnc-it said:
What was the state of physiology in the 80's? What have we discover since?
And whos is the rider similar to Lemond?
Re: Re:
The only issue with the scientific training claim is cycling is very simple. Cadence range, incline range, effort duration range.
That's pretty much it.
The way the body works has not changed.
The duration and incline range hasn't changed; they still race the same distance prologs / TTs and the same mountains, over the same distance stages.
So you can change your cadence.
Big deal.
In 2012 reverse periodisation was the lie perpetuated to explain a 6 month peak from Wiggo. Funny how they can't / don't do that any more. Noone has performed at the level Wiggo did that year since. Sure, Valverde has more points, but his example as a higher ranked CQ points rider than Froome makes a mockery of any claim to superior scientific training.
cnc-it said:
The only issue with the scientific training claim is cycling is very simple. Cadence range, incline range, effort duration range.
That's pretty much it.
The way the body works has not changed.
The duration and incline range hasn't changed; they still race the same distance prologs / TTs and the same mountains, over the same distance stages.
So you can change your cadence.
Big deal.
In 2012 reverse periodisation was the lie perpetuated to explain a 6 month peak from Wiggo. Funny how they can't / don't do that any more. Noone has performed at the level Wiggo did that year since. Sure, Valverde has more points, but his example as a higher ranked CQ points rider than Froome makes a mockery of any claim to superior scientific training.
Re: Re:
Including Sky, the one team who claimed that they were going to be 'open' about everything that they do...
Including Sky, the one team who claimed that they were going to be 'open' about everything that they do...
Re: Re:
Even friggin Movistar/Valverde released data in 2013...
When you have the data for one team, like for instance Vayer has on AG2R, you have the rest too, it isnt a very difficult math sum to do...Robert21 said:
Even friggin Movistar/Valverde released data in 2013...
Re: Re:
Just out of interest, what are you defining as 'performance'? Is it power data? Or is it racing success? Because if it is the latter then it is skewed by all sorts of other factors not least the absence of Contador in 2012 (or at least up until August 5)
Dear Wiggo said:
Just out of interest, what are you defining as 'performance'? Is it power data? Or is it racing success? Because if it is the latter then it is skewed by all sorts of other factors not least the absence of Contador in 2012 (or at least up until August 5)
Re: Re:
Yep. The clever thing about Sky's promise to be 'open and transparent' was that they never defined what they meant by being open and transparent
Maybe it just meant saying 'we don't dope"
Robert21 said:
Yep. The clever thing about Sky's promise to be 'open and transparent' was that they never defined what they meant by being open and transparent
Maybe it just meant saying 'we don't dope"
Re: Re:
Dr Mas would be proud of your attempt to vortex away from the point: reverse periodisation was touted as the new black when it comes to peaking for 6 months at a time, resulting in Wiggo winning every multi-stag race he entered and winning every TT (not prolog) he entered in 2012.
Scientific training claims, like reverse periodisation, Tim Kerrison and Chris Carmichael are all smoke screens.
wendybnt said:
Dr Mas would be proud of your attempt to vortex away from the point: reverse periodisation was touted as the new black when it comes to peaking for 6 months at a time, resulting in Wiggo winning every multi-stag race he entered and winning every TT (not prolog) he entered in 2012.
Scientific training claims, like reverse periodisation, Tim Kerrison and Chris Carmichael are all smoke screens.
Re: Re:
Froome is at the "boundaries of human physiology"...there are no others like him...not just in this peloton but in any sport ever in the history of sports as we have measured them...you seem therefore to be suggesting they, SKY, are worried about someone with a hilman imp turning up at an F1 race and Ferrari (no, not that Ferrari) being scared to show them what's under the bonnet......
cnc-it said:
Froome is at the "boundaries of human physiology"...there are no others like him...not just in this peloton but in any sport ever in the history of sports as we have measured them...you seem therefore to be suggesting they, SKY, are worried about someone with a hilman imp turning up at an F1 race and Ferrari (no, not that Ferrari) being scared to show them what's under the bonnet......
Re: Re:
Err....rather than just babbling about people neither I (nor google) have heard of, why don't you just have a good-natured go at answering my question? x
Dear Wiggo said:
Err....rather than just babbling about people neither I (nor google) have heard of, why don't you just have a good-natured go at answering my question? x
Re: Re:
Wiggins can only beat what turns up. But if Contador is the bench mark and a known doper, then what do you expect of Wiggins, cleanliness? Hardly?
Does that "ask your question?"
SKy fans love to introduce Contador as if it somehow makes sky look clean. It doesn't.
Open and transparent doesn't equal "we don't dope". Fail.
wendybnt said:
Wiggins can only beat what turns up. But if Contador is the bench mark and a known doper, then what do you expect of Wiggins, cleanliness? Hardly?
Does that "ask your question?"
SKy fans love to introduce Contador as if it somehow makes sky look clean. It doesn't.
Open and transparent doesn't equal "we don't dope". Fail.
I'm sure Dear Wiggo would prefer to answer himself, rather than have you do it for him, especially since you haven't answered the question I asked him.
Ta.
Ta.
Re: Re:
"Same as it ever was" Same as it ever was"Benotti69 said:Dear Wiggo said:
I knew that 'voice' was back, but could not remember the name.
Btw Le Mond wasn't my example but as someone brought him up I would say that his method of preparing for the Tour was hardly scientific..battle through the Giro and hope for the best..not really a tailored scientific training program like they are using at Sky! If Froome is the phenomenon he is supposed to be then it's quite feasible he can better Le Mond's performances with a modern scientific training approach! An approach that Sky don't want to give away to the public and press even though Paul Kimmage has suggested they should do.
Re:
We dont know what sky do. They talk a lot of crap. They slam other teams as amateurs through Walsh as their mouthpiece. Sky have told plenty of lies that we know of.
I would not think that because Sky say they do something it makes a difference.
But to dismiss LeMonds training as basic is unfair. LeMond paid attention to lots of stuff at his time. LeMond was an innovator when he raced. I guess he paid attention to all aspects of his racing, not just some fancy handlebars, but nutrition, training etc....
The only difference in Sky's approach, imo, than other teams is they have the cash to look better, but behind the facade, they pretty much the same as every other team.
Remember year 1 for Sky when they were the lantern rouge of the peloton? What was the reaction? Get experience people from the world of pro cycling in, Leinders, Yates, Knaven, DeJongh, Jullich, Rogers etc etc. So when they could not do it their way, they went old school. Not seen anything different in Sky's approach, except they control the Brit media.
Rest of the world knows Froome is a doper and Sky are a doping team.
cnc-it said:
We dont know what sky do. They talk a lot of crap. They slam other teams as amateurs through Walsh as their mouthpiece. Sky have told plenty of lies that we know of.
I would not think that because Sky say they do something it makes a difference.
But to dismiss LeMonds training as basic is unfair. LeMond paid attention to lots of stuff at his time. LeMond was an innovator when he raced. I guess he paid attention to all aspects of his racing, not just some fancy handlebars, but nutrition, training etc....
The only difference in Sky's approach, imo, than other teams is they have the cash to look better, but behind the facade, they pretty much the same as every other team.
Remember year 1 for Sky when they were the lantern rouge of the peloton? What was the reaction? Get experience people from the world of pro cycling in, Leinders, Yates, Knaven, DeJongh, Jullich, Rogers etc etc. So when they could not do it their way, they went old school. Not seen anything different in Sky's approach, except they control the Brit media.
Rest of the world knows Froome is a doper and Sky are a doping team.
Re: Paul Kimmage - Hero
Wondered why the Sky thread was so quiet all of a sudden. Its been moved here
Wondered why the Sky thread was so quiet all of a sudden. Its been moved here
Re:
If it were actually true that Froome was some sort of Lemond-like power producer, then he'd have all kinds of competitor's-souls-destroyed-coming-in-minutes-ahead results at lower ranked races. There were none. Zero.
End.
I'm all for more data. It will validate the estimates already being done.
cnc-it said:
If it were actually true that Froome was some sort of Lemond-like power producer, then he'd have all kinds of competitor's-souls-destroyed-coming-in-minutes-ahead results at lower ranked races. There were none. Zero.
End.
I'm all for more data. It will validate the estimates already being done.
Re: Re:
Froome does have similar power out put to Le Mond...415-430 watts average for Le Mond in a time trial, Froome's average watts are similar over the same distance I think?
DirtyWorks said:
Froome does have similar power out put to Le Mond...415-430 watts average for Le Mond in a time trial, Froome's average watts are similar over the same distance I think?
Re:
Well yes but before Le Mond won his second Tour he had no form until the last time trial in the Giro..he didn't look like a champ at all during the race...things can change quickly in cycling..not commenting on Froome's credibility here just saying things aren't always clear cut...
Dear Wiggo said:
Well yes but before Le Mond won his second Tour he had no form until the last time trial in the Giro..he didn't look like a champ at all during the race...things can change quickly in cycling..not commenting on Froome's credibility here just saying things aren't always clear cut...
Re: Re:
Surely you're kidding? LeMond was a star from the moment he started competing as a teenager.cnc-it said:
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