Pegasus Sports > 'Gillett-Fly-V' > Non existent

[LastRide]

Robbie will definitely be going to RadioShack. Bookmark it.

I loved it when Robbie told Lance to "Close your mouth or I will put my fist in it"

Maybe Lance forgot about that one.

 

[Sasquatch]

I loved it when Robbie told Lance to "Close your mouth or I will put my fist in it"

Maybe Lance forgot about that one.

Even though Lance is a **** at the end of the day, the guy hates losing. He doesn't have a big sprinting combination on his team and he knows Robbie still has the goods.

He will do anything to form a winning team.

 

[auscyclefan94]

You then still need the sort of riders that are free and willing to sign up and are persuasive arguments. There are not many that qualify for the "big enough fish" title.

So you have the $$$ in 2011. Now "all" you need a pedigree team to get a quick wild card. But you will now also be dealing with pedigree riders who are also seriously warned in 2010 about the likelihood of burnt fingers by the double whammy of Geox and Pegasus. And who will still get plenty of comparable lucrative offers from far more secure corners.

Forget Pegasus.

Even with the sort of direct investment that Vacansoleil pumped into ASO races, and some mildly attractive French riders you still don't buy a TdF entry card. You need big boys and big cash.

Enter Geox. Even with the likes of Menchov and Sastre at the helm, a stash full of fresh $$$, a proven sponsorship track record in a key cycling market, you apparently are still not buying a PT status. (A decision I applaud actually, although I wish it had been applied as a golden rule from the start).

Sure, with those two names, a TdF wild card looks a lot more likely. I would be amazed of we don't see Menchov in the TdF this year.

But given the status of their current team, and this Pegasus pantomime, I expect that the next Menchovs and Sastres would be a wee bit more reluctant to sign up in 2011 for an Ozzie team, or any team, that has not even got the appropriate status in the bag.

Heck, I expect that even the Traksels are more reluctant to sign until the ink is dry on a lot of other papers too.

And any upcoming rider with some ambition will seriously ponder how the risk of a year without a contract stacks up against a temporarily more lucrative offer, but that has "seriously risky" tattooed all over its chest. I'm sure what they will judge to be the more lucrative offer, in the long run.

Unless you can get into a shoe-in like the best of the ex-Saxo team with additions and enough financial backing..... If you think that is likely or readily available, indeed, look harder.

If Sky, RadioShack and Team Luxembourg are the sort of exceptions that people are now starting to see as a valid and reasonably likely route up for anyone with money, I think (apart from realizing once again how misguided and short-sighted the UCI was when they handed them out to Sky and RS), they are missing all the other signals that it really really isn't, or certainly isn't as "likely" as it was 1 year ago (and I suspect Sky only got it so "just" RS wouldn't be seen to be such a biased/corrupt call).

Again, I expect that Sastre and Menchov were a wee bit surprised when the PT status decline came in. But a lot of sideline observers will take that on board now, when teams without entry assurances are starting to wave seemingly attractive deals, halfway 2011.

No matter how much money people have to wave about, you will still need the riders. If Menchov+Sastre ain't cutting it for 2011, "just" 2012 Cadel wouldn't do either, for instance.

The Schlecks went their own way with the backing of patriotic vanity investors. If Contador had gone all F1 on us, and got the best of Caisse and Astana with him, or something, it would also have been a rider that can't be ignored going "his own way". Rare cases in which money is really only a secondary concern (albeit still a sizeable one no doubt).

It looks like Sastre and Menchov are now obliged to ride in places that they hasd no intention to, as it ruins the ideal run-up to their personal ambition targets. Just like Cadel this year, they will be stretched thinner than they want to, to make persuasive argument for 2011 season wild cards. Making a successful assault in France that wee bit harder, at a time when their annual attempts are getting more desperate and unlikely, with each year that passes. Age does that. And I bet that for both Sastre and Menchov personal ambition was more important, or at least equally important, as the money on offer, when they made the plunge.

I can't see any team without 100%-in-all-but-name entry security being an attractive option to anyone with genuine ambitions, for the 2011 signing season. Not after the fall-out of this year's team shuffles.

I also hear people talking as if 2012 is still 2 years away. It ain't. It is one recruiting year and one license application opportunity away.

Obviously Cadel does just cut it, According to most on the forum, cadel is team BMC and was the only rider who did something. Now look at BMC, they have a PT license.

I personally see it working but they must recruit early and gurantee that sponsors are seucre. Must not make silly promises. We'll see in less than 9 months time if it will all come together.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I loved it when Robbie told Lance to "Close your mouth or I will put my fist in it"

Maybe Lance forgot about that one.

When was that? Can't say I remember...

 

[PCutter]

I loved it when Robbie told Lance to "Close your mouth or I will put my fist in it"

Maybe Lance forgot about that one.

That was actually my first thought when the Robbie/RS connection was mentioned. They've had a number of run-ins over the years - two dogs, one bone.

 

[LastRide]

You then still need the sort of riders that are free and willing to sign up and are persuasive arguments. There are not many that qualify for the "big enough fish" title.

So you have the $$$ in 2011. Now "all" you need a pedigree team to get a quick wild card. But you will now also be dealing with pedigree riders who are also seriously warned in 2010 about the likelihood of burnt fingers by the double whammy of Geox and Pegasus. And who will still get plenty of comparable lucrative offers from far more secure corners.

Forget Pegasus.

Even with the sort of direct investment that Vacansoleil pumped into ASO races, and some mildly attractive French riders you still don't buy a TdF entry card. You need big boys and big cash.

Enter Geox. Even with the likes of Menchov and Sastre at the helm, a stash full of fresh $$$, a proven sponsorship track record in a key cycling market, you apparently are still not buying a PT status. (A decision I applaud actually, although I wish it had been applied as a golden rule from the start).

Sure, with those two names, a TdF wild card looks a lot more likely. I would be amazed of we don't see Menchov in the TdF this year.

But given the status of their current team, and this Pegasus pantomime, I expect that the next Menchovs and Sastres would be a wee bit more reluctant to sign up in 2011 for an Ozzie team, or any team, that has not even got the appropriate status in the bag.

Heck, I expect that even the Traksels are more reluctant to sign until the ink is dry on a lot of other papers too.

And any upcoming rider with some ambition will seriously ponder how the risk of a year without a contract stacks up against a temporarily more lucrative offer, but that has "seriously risky" tattooed all over its chest. I'm sure what they will judge to be the more lucrative offer, in the long run.

Unless you can get into a shoe-in like the best of the ex-Saxo team with additions and enough financial backing..... If you think that is likely or readily available, indeed, look harder.

If Sky, RadioShack and Team Luxembourg are the sort of exceptions that people are now starting to see as a valid and reasonably likely route up for anyone with money, I think (apart from realizing once again how misguided and short-sighted the UCI was when they handed them out to Sky and RS), they are missing all the other signals that it really really isn't, or certainly isn't as "likely" as it was 1 year ago (and I suspect Sky only got it so "just" RS wouldn't be seen to be such a biased/corrupt call).

Again, I expect that Sastre and Menchov were a wee bit surprised when the PT status decline came in. But a lot of sideline observers will take that on board now, when teams without entry assurances are starting to wave seemingly attractive deals, halfway 2011.

No matter how much money people have to wave about, you will still need the riders. If Menchov+Sastre ain't cutting it for 2011, "just" 2012 Cadel wouldn't do either, for instance.

The Schlecks went their own way with the backing of patriotic vanity investors. If Contador had gone all F1 on us, and got the best of Caisse and Astana with him, or something, it would also have been a rider that can't be ignored going "his own way". Rare cases in which money is really only a secondary concern (albeit still a sizeable one no doubt).

It looks like Sastre and Menchov are now obliged to ride in places that they hasd no intention to, as it ruins the ideal run-up to their personal ambition targets. Just like Cadel this year, they will be stretched thinner than they want to, to make persuasive argument for 2011 season wild cards. Making a successful assault in France that wee bit harder, at a time when their annual attempts are getting more desperate and unlikely, with each year that passes. Age does that. And I bet that for both Sastre and Menchov personal ambition was more important, or at least equally important, as the money on offer, when they made the plunge.

I can't see any team without 100%-in-all-but-name entry security being an attractive option to anyone with genuine ambitions, for the 2011 signing season. Not after the fall-out of this year's team shuffles.

I also hear people talking as if 2012 is still 2 years away. It ain't. It is one recruiting year and one license application opportunity away.

Good points, i have an idea how it works.

It is like anything, but to put it simply Big Money= big names, big staff, big reputations = key relationships with the right people = Big race starts.

I know who they are talking to, i also have a fair idea of their staff and know who they will be. This is a serious attempt. Unlike Pegasus the people involved in this project know the right people in the right places and have done so for a very long time. They have the financial and administrational backing.

You make a very good point about 2012. This will be good news for Australian Cycling in the wake of what just happened.

 

[Francois the Postman]

But back to your quote, assuming they don't sign a Bert, or a Schleck - and I think that's safe - isn't a GT start simply a case of buying enough UCI points? Or have I missed something?

You are correct on the points to some extent. What you miss is the usual smoke and mirrors of all the "other requirements" (for PT status) and the relative freedom (and power) of the GTs to set their own rules.

The one thing I have learned over the years is that there are different rules every year, and we often only find out which ones a few weeks before the blatant signing signing season opens, or sometimes even only when it is already in full swing. Rules are usually changed to suit one particluar case that the UCI wants addressed in its favour.

I get the rules for this year. Ask me October 2011 what is happening in 2012 with entry allocation.

Who gets into GTs is still based on formal agreements made between the organisers and the UCI. In principle the GTs can decide for themselves. In practise there are some binding agreements. Sometimes it looks like they are getting closer to a uniform approach, then suddenly one overplays its cards (usually the UCI), they all have a hissy fit and suddenly it is clear that the GTs are still able to set their own terms, and the UCI needs them too much. I suspect the ASO is willing to work together with the UCI if it means that it gets a prominent seat on the "direction of cycling" board, and the likes of the Giro organisers are sidelined a bit. It is politics, politics, politics.

A couple of years the old TdF regime seemed more willing to walk away from the UCI unless it complied more with its demands (and firmer anti-doping attitude at least seemed one of the pillars). Alas, with the new regime in place, we are apparently back on terra firma that has a new welcome door mat in place, with "we'll trade that attitude for more influence on the UCI policies overall at the cost of the smaller organisers" on it.

On a side-note, I am not sure how the UCI and its rules and regulations will come out of 2011, given the potential ****-storm brewing. Seriously, I have no idea what the exact entry requirements for 2012 will be.

 

[Hoop Dogg]

Think mcewen going to the shack would be highly unlikely, they had a pretty good stoush a couple of years ago and we all know that he seems to like hanging on to his grudges e.g simeoni. On the other hand though, as his international swansong is the TDU, there may be the possibility they may draft him in for a bit of PR. And we all know how much he loves THAT.

 

[LastRide]

When was that? Can't say I remember...

Short version..

TDF, Lance stopped for a **** and Robbie without realizing took off up the road. USPS had to chase. Lance got upset and RM apologized saying that he didnt realise. Not good enough apparently so Lance kept running his mouth until RM said he would put his fist in it. Then Lance closed it... until after the stage.. Usual class..

 

[Francois the Postman]

Obviously Cadel does just cut it, According to most on the forum, cadel is team BMC and was the only rider who did something. Now look at BMC, they have a PT license.

I personally see it working but they must recruit early and gurantee that sponsors are seucre. Must not make silly promises. We'll see in less than 9 months time if it will all come together.

Hence why I carefully chose my words and wrote "2012 Cadel", who is the sort of rider they would have to angle for, but who won't be the forceful card on the books for 2012, like he was for 2010. As you well know, 2010 cadel + $$$ was not good enough to buy BMC a PT license, for instance. And they had to ride the early season to guarantee a TdF entry. name and money alone were quite probably not enough if Cadel had sucked in the Spring.

[BMC Pro Conti + "2010 cadel" + WC jersey ] => immediate-GT-entry + still 1-year-wait-for-a-PT-license

does not equal

[a team without any pro status yet + a "2012 Cadel and $$$] => immediate PT status or TdF entry]

 

[johnlee]

must be Robbie Hunter then for RS

 

[PCutter]

Short version..

TDF, Lance stopped for a **** and Robbie without realizing took off up the road. USPS had to chase. Lance got upset and RM apologized saying that he didnt realise. Not good enough apparently so Lance kept running his mouth until RM said he would put his fist in it. Then Lance closed it... until after the stage.. Usual class..

Adding a little more flavour to this, Robbie was chasing green, Lance in yellow, Lance was agreived that someone disrespect the yellow jersey by attacking during a nature break - Robbie's view was, that (the yellow) is not the only prize here and I'm employed to get green, and that LA's nature break was untimely for him as it may cost him points, and his jersey, so dont expect him to sacrifice his ambitions so LA can have a P*** whenever he chooses. He also pointed out that Lance never asked him when he was in green if was ok if UPS attacked. Just another reason Im a Robbie fan.

 

[pmtg99]

absoloutley wonderful, after months of anticipation, and a forum with almost 1000 posts, nothing. just great

 

[PCutter]

absoloutley wonderful, after months of anticipation, and a forum with almost 1000 posts, nothing. just great

Congratulations, you're our 1000th customer!

Trent Lowe used to ride for Discovery, so maybe LA might be thinking of him as a signing.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Good points, i have an idea how it works.

It is like anything, but to put it simply Big Money= big names, big staff, big reputations = key relationships with the right people = Big race starts.

I know who they are talking to, i also have a fair idea of their staff and know who they will be. This is a serious attempt. Unlike Pegasus the people involved in this project know the right people in the right places and have done so for a very long time. They have the financial and administrational backing.

You make a very good point about 2012. This will be good news for Australian Cycling in the wake of what just happened.

I get that and I wish them well. I really hope to see a serious Ozzie (/NZ?) flavoured team at the highest level, sooner rather than later. I quite teams that have a predominantly national flavour, I'm old school. And Australia has certainly produced some big names recently. What is missing is "that team".

Softly softly is the way forwards.

Sure, if a decent team comes off the ground, I would be amazed if they didn't get "big race starts" somewhere.

The thing is, the TdF in 2012 isn't a big race start, it is the biggest race start.

When people start to usher those words in public, and with only ambitions and private understandings in place, without dried ink on key riders, paperwork, and licenses, someone is starting to gun for the sort of bear that everyone wants to shoot, but few people manage to bag. And with the fall-out of the latest fiasco still coming down.....?

If the statement on the news had been that they were aiming for "big races in 2012", and given that they appear to have taken a slightly more realistic approach route to their license goals, you'd have the blessing from many many cycling fans the world over.

If the statement is that the TdF entry is the target for their first season, they probably don't get that that ambition statement sounds utterly arrogant. I almost don't care how realistic it "actually" is, and I know the same is true for many folk.

There are many many teams trying to secure it every year, all with their ambitions and history behind them. The race itself has a long tradition and status behind it. You don't buy it. You ride to earn it.

There certainly are some teams around that have earned the right to be included. Some over many many years, some because it is, still, a local race to some too.

But there are very very few riders out there who have earned the right to compete.

And those are exactly the sort of riders that need to be bought before any "fledgling" team (on the highest stage, I don't mean it derogatory) would be seen as a legit entry for the TdF. There are very very few "open" places available, and every year teams that already have a track record argument are passed over. And for every one that gains it, one team loses the right.

With the new entry system, every "old team" will be after the same riders that secure entries too, especially around the qualification margins (whatever they are).

I get it is a serious attempt. I wish them well. But it will be in direct competition with established teams and their backers, at that level, who will also make serious attempts to retain their TdF entry.

As an aside:

It might be a cultural thing, as I am fully aware that "statements of confidence and ambition" are read as "statements of "arrogance" in other parts of the world, or by other people. And that people need to talk to dofferent audiences with different voices and all....

...but, deserved or not, the TdF is anchored at the hub of a few very active cycling nations, where the latter reading will be heard more often. Results should do the largest part of the talking, when you start to lay claims, or project in that direction. Not the mouth.

And showing respect to the weight of history of it all helps too, when it comes to how people judge the speaker. Do they know "their place"?

I might not know what the rules the UCI is brewing for 2012. The one rule I do know is that any rider of team that gives any sense of not knowing their place in the history of it all is guaranteed a long hostile welcome by many who love the sport more than any single rider. And, unfortunately, sometimes fans who don't get this can secure this welcome too for their object of infatuation, regardless of what that rider is like "left to his own".

Expect some serious hostility if that "TdF 2012" tone is kept up loudly. All the more if it actually happens without a series of road results to underwrite the ambition. As it will mean that teams that have gone through those paces have been leap-frogged. Folk tend to see that.

 

[pmtg99]

Congratulations, you're our 1000th customer!

Trent Lowe used to ride for Discovery, so maybe LA might be thinking of him as a signing.

wow, i thought i was 999

 

[kease7]

cycling australia saying they will help out aussie riders

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycl...ers-if-pegasus-doesnt-fly-20101216-18znw.html

source = twiiter via scott sunderland

 

[Night Rider]

cycling australia saying they will help out aussie riders

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycl...ers-if-pegasus-doesnt-fly-20101216-18znw.html

source = twiiter via scott sunderland

That article is a week old.

 

[kease7]

DOH...... sorry poor research

 

[BroDeal]

Robbie will definitely be going to RadioShack. Bookmark it.

Jeebus! Does RS really need more over the hill riders?

 

[auscyclefan94]

Jeebus! Does RS really need more over the hill riders?

Yeah but I think he would do more than most of the other "over the hill" riders.


Interesting tweet here by Mike Tomalaris

Dirty politics involved in Pegasus collapse. Those involved should be ashamed at a time when Oz cycling should be united.

 

[Martin318is]

I long ago gave up on the idea of Mike Tomalaris breaking some real news (or for that matter say something with any insight).

Odds are he has just been handed one person's version of events (sounds very much like White has been in his ear)

 

[Sasquatch]

I long ago gave up on the idea of Mike Tomalaris breaking some real news (or for that matter say something with any insight).

Odds are he has just been handed one person's version of events (sounds very much like White has been in his ear)

Yep.

And you don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out what he means by dirty politics.

 

[Spare Tyre]

ACF, I have just remembered that promise of yours to streak up Willunga hill if Pegasus aren't there.

 

[Anonymous]

Vogels says Pegasus Sports will continue, expects majority of its riders to stay

Hes as mad a white. They dont give up to they, turned down at a second attempt and a pro conti licence and still they vow they will continue.
Vogels, White, accept when youre beaten ffs