Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[Broccolidwarf]

I tried to abstain from the discussion about Sagan's relegation yesterday and will only add that I'm fully behind Chris Horner's view on this subject. Couldn't have said it better:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1303791198050623491

View: https://twitter.com/hornerakg/status/1303791198050623491?s=20

It should explain to of the punters in here, why Sagan couldn't just brake in the sprint yesterday

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Armstrong and Hincapie also weighed in:

View: https://youtu.be/T-KPAEC88FQ

 

[richwallone]

It should explain to of the punters in here, why Sagan couldn't just brake in the sprint yesterday

Yep, once the sprinters commit and go full speed out of saddle there is no braking... Just not possible!

 

[Flamin]

It isn't about whether Sagan could or should have braked. Of course you can't just brake once you're fully committed in a sprint, which was the case with Ackermann in the Tirreno.

Sagan on the other hand hesitates twice (look at his body movements from the heli view) to go into a non-existing gap and decides to go for it nonetheless. He didn't even have to brake to avoid contact with Van Aert, so the "a sprinter can't brake"-argument is nonsense in this case.

Horner also says there was a gap at first and then Van Aert closed it by moving "just 2 inches" towards the barrier. How does this rhyme with Sagan barging into Van Aert's hips first? If Sagan can't even get next to him without touching (let alone barging) hips, how is he going to make it past his shoulders?

 

[DFA123]

It isn't about whether Sagan could or should have braked. Of course you can't just brake once you're fully committed in a sprint, which was the case with Ackermann in the Tirreno.

Sagan on the other hand hesitates twice (look at his body movements from the heli view) to go into a non-existing gap and decides to go for it nonetheless. He didn't even have to brake to avoid contact with Van Aert, so the "a sprinter can't brake"-argument is nonsense in this case.

Horner also says there was a gap at first and then Van Aert closed it by moving "just 2 inches" towards the barrier. How does this rhyme with Sagan barging into Van Aert's hips first? If Sagan can't even get next to him without touching (let alone barging) hips, how is he going to make it past his shoulders?

Yep, talk about braking is just a straw man. And also ignores the fact, that even if Sagan had indeed got himself into a position where braking or making contact were the only two options, then that would also have been entirely his fault, for shooting for a gap that was never there.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

It isn't about whether Sagan could or should have braked. Of course you can't just brake once you're fully committed in a sprint, which was the case with Ackermann in the Tirreno.

Sagan on the other hand hesitates twice (look at his body movements from the heli view) to go into a non-existing gap and decides to go for it nonetheless. He didn't even have to brake to avoid contact with Van Aert, so the "a sprinter can't brake"-argument is nonsense in this case.

Horner also says there was a gap at first and then Van Aert closed it by moving "just 2 inches" towards the barrier. How does this rhyme with Sagan barging into Van Aert's hips first? If Sagan can't even get next to him without touching (let alone barging) hips, how is he going to make it past his shoulders?

Odd you call it a "non-existing" gap, since the gap was clearly there, as Sagan made it through it

Edit:

Here's that gap you claim is not there:

 

[richwallone]

Yep, talk about braking is just a straw man. And also ignores the fact, that even if Sagan had indeed got himself into a position where braking or making contact were the only two options, then that would also have been entirely his fault, for shooting for a gap that was never there.

It's just the same than as it is endlessly talking about the "non-existent" gap

 

[DFA123]

Here's that gap you claim is not there:

Pretty clear that there is not a big enough gap there. Even a still photo shows that, without accounting for the rocking of the bike. Probably the most incriminating photo I've seen of the incident.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Pretty clear that there is not a big enough gap there. Even a still photo shows that, without accounting for the rocking of the bike. Probably the most incriminating photo I've seen of the incident.

A little over a meter, plenty of room.... I'm guessing you have not been a competitive rider?

 

[DFA123]

A little over a meter, plenty of room.... I'm guessing you have not been a competitive rider?

I disagree. There is clearly not plenty of room - which is ultimately why he ended up being disqualified. And any 'competitive rider' who thinks that is a reasonable gap to shoot for, should have their license suspended for the sake of the rest of us.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

I disagree. There is clearly not plenty of room - which is ultimately why he ended up being disqualified. And any 'competitive rider' who thinks that is a reasonable gap to shoot for, should have their license suspended for the sake of the rest of us.

So that was a no? - You never took part in a bike race?

 

[tomorrow]

IMHO, Sagan knew what he was doing, horner is right in that case that he cant break, the gap was there and the jury is right to relegate Sagan, because it's dangerous. But all the sprinters know it's dangerous. In the end, the decision to go for it or not is on the sprinter. In such a case, as the UCI rule is quite clear, he has to count with the relegation if the gap is closed.
However, Sagan cannot be blamed for the decision to go for it. Yes it's dangerous and yes, recently there was pretty severe showcase of consequences if something happens. But all the sprinters accept the risk. Otherwise they wouldn't be there. You cannot get rid of it, because it would be like to tell the boxers just to do a shadow fight, because they could get a concussion, or worse, a brain damage. It's a sport for christ sake, and many of the best and most successful sportsmen and sportswomen are arrogant as hell. And they need to be, unless it stops after the race.
Today, sagan again showed rising form, it may not be enough for the green on tour, but pissed(in a good way) Sagan in a good shape will make an impact in the Giro. Maybe even points jersey and multiple stage wins.

EDIT: It would be nice though, if the resolution of the green would happen only in Paris. Somewhere around 20 points difference would be the best.

 

[Red Rick]

Van Aert seemed pretty vocal about not accepting what happened.

 

[SKSemtex]

I disagree. There is clearly not plenty of room - which is ultimately why he ended up being disqualified. And any 'competitive rider' who thinks that is a reasonable gap to shoot for, should have their license suspended for the sake of the rest of us.

Haters gonna always hate. Your bias to him is well known. Of course, there was no gap there yesterday and plenty of space for CAV in 2017. What a pity he was not DSQ yesterday.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Danish TV played an interview with Bennett, and his comment on Van Aert crying about Sagan was:

"I don't know at what point in the last few years, that sprinters have become soft"

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Danish TV played an interview with Bennett, and his comment on Van Aert crying about Sagan was:

"I don't know at what point in the last few years, that sprinters have become soft"

ah now, he said “...that sprinting has become soft” which is a bit less pointed

 

[DFA123]

Haters gonna always hate. Your bias to him is well known. Of course, there was no gap there yesterday and plenty of space for CAV in 2017. What a pity he was not DSQ yesterday.

No need to get personal. What are your thoughts on the move? For example, if someone else had done that to Sagan and cost him a chance at going for victory, would you claim it was all fair in sprinting?

 

[Broccolidwarf]

ah now, he said “...that sprinting has become soft” which is a bit less pointed

Same message, both with a pointed message for Van Aert

 

[SKSemtex]

No need to get personal. What are your thoughts on the move? For example, if someone else had done that to Sagan and cost him a chance at going for victory, would you claim it was all fair in sprinting?

Of course, I would be pissed off a few minutes. But I would not be writing this nonsense two days which you are writing.

 

[Keram]

Good showing from Sagan today. He clearly gain some good shape. I hope he win stage 14 or 19. I am thrilled he looks alive after long time.

 

[DFA123]

Of course, I would be pissed off a few minutes. But I would not be writing this nonsense two days which you are writing.

Well, to be fair, it is by far the most notable thing that Sagan has done all year.

 

[tobydawq]

No need to get personal. What are your thoughts on the move? For example, if someone else had done that to Sagan and cost him a chance at going for victory, would you claim it was all fair in sprinting?

What if Sagan's handlebars had tangled with Van Aert's elbow, forcing it go up? Then Van Aert should be expelled judging by what happened in 2017.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Same message, both with a pointed message for Van Aert

the emphasis is different. I mean, either way it’s pretty clearly siding with Sagan but since when has sprinting gone soft isn‘t a direct personal insult to WVA in the way that since when have sprinters gone soft is.

 

[tomorrow]

Van Aert seemed pretty vocal about not accepting what happened.

Well, Van Aert isn't exactly a sprinter, is he. Sagan has be on the others side of these "miniwars" multiple times in previous sprints. E.g. in stages 1 and 3 the fight for the wheel with the ISN sprinter. Actually I'd started to think, he's a little too assertive after the DSQ in 2017. But that was probably not it, the legs apparently weren't there at that time.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Re:



I couldn't believe what I was seeing, it was the perhaps the most vivid representation I've seen of someone's head being gone. He's clearly an emotional lad but from a pro sportsman you usually expect your blow ups to be articulated in the classic Kevin Keegan style as opposed to looking completely defeated.

What if Sagan's handlebars had tangled with Van Aert's elbow, forcing it go up? Then Van Aert should be expelled judging by what happened in 2017.

Is it inconsistent to say that Sagan was wrongfully disqualified in 2017, as I thought then and think now, but also was rightfully relegated in 2020? He did slightly deviate from his line in 2017 but that was partially forced by Demare and not particularly egregious. I don't think he should have even been relegated. In 2020, he clearly deviated from his line and initiated contact.