Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[sir fly]

It's just a way for them to be present at today's stage.
Absurd appeal.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

This is stupid. They want Sagan to be allowed back into the race? That's just not possible - sorry.
But I'm afraid CAS won't realize this and will put ASO in an impossible situation.

You're expecting CAS to reach a decision in this before the Tour finishes?

Yes. Bora filed for a quick trial. They even expected/hoped to get a reply before yesterday's start.

I think by CAS standards a "quick trial" means "some times before the end of this year."

I just spit a little coffee! :lol: I remember CAS making a 24 hour decision for an Oly athlete though so they can do it...they just usually don't.

 

[ihosama]

Re:

This is stupid. They want Sagan to be allowed back into the race? That's just not possible - sorry.
But I'm afraid CAS won't realize this and will put ASO in an impossible situation.

It's just a way for them to be present at today's stage.
Absurd appeal.

The case with CAS was lodged before the start of Stage 5 with a request for an emergency injuction. Unfortunately it was not heard out in time.

They just did not announce it immediately yesterday. Likely did not want to be seen as confrontational until UCI proves beyond doubt that admitting/correcting mistakes is not on the cards.

You can also see that laywers were involved as they do not attack the matter itself (as that is a highly debatable one and CAS does not really have the know-how on sport-specific rules anyway). They mainly attack the fact that their rider was not allowed to defend his case before the jury and as such the jury overstepped their own authority with the wrong ruling being just a consequence.

Even if nothing else comes out, this is the way to set a precedent.

In a way, it is good UCI got in loggerheads with BOH, a German team like this. While Germans may have lots of faults, order and sticking with the rules (whatever they are) is one of their strengths. They will not give up just like a Russian Tinkoff may have, refusing to "argue with idiots".

I am (foolishly?) hoping that, after losing, the UCI buerocracy gets a lessons learned from this case. If there was anyone who can take them on, it is probably Sagan on the PR and Germans on the organizational sides.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Reports on twitter that CAS have rejected Sagans appeal.

 

[ice&fire]

Re:

Reports on twitter that CAS have rejected Sagans appeal.

What a shame. I expected they request ASO to repeat yesterday's stage.

 

[DanielSong39]

Moral of the story, don't throw your elbow at another rider (even if it misses).

 

[Dr. Watson]

Re:

Moral of the story, don't throw your elbow at another rider (even if it misses).

He didnt

 

[ihosama]

Lausanne, 6 July 2017 – The Court of Arbitration of Sport (CAS) issued a decision rejecting an urgent request for provisional measures filed by the Slovak cyclist Peter Sagan and the Denk Pro Cycling team in the afternoon of 5 July 2017. The rider and team appealed the exclusion of the rider by the UCI Commissaires Panel on 4 July 2017 following an incident during the sprint phase at the end of the 4th stage of the 2017 Tour de France (Mondorf-les-Bains to Vittel).

Not good.
Looks the ruling was on the provisional measures, probably due to proportionality, not the matter itself. Wondering if there will be a dispute opened on the actual matter of the case.

 

[d-s3]

There should be one.
Probably the only way to make UCI learn is to make them pay.
Bora team & sponsors lost money because of DQ and they should try to get that money from UCI.

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

I think by CAS standards a "quick trial" means "some times before the end of this year."

No, really. That's not the case. I know we've mainly seen very long, drawn out CAS cases in cycling but they can deliver a quick decision in urgent cases and upon request.

In this case it's so urgent CAS would need to invent time-travelling.

Sagan is reinstated, but he has to ride the whole routes of all the stages he has missed, solo, within the time limit, before Tuesday's stage after the rest day on Monday. If he catches up before then, (is if he gets to Station Les Rousses by Saturday evening) he can rejoin the start line sooner.

 

[animir]

This accident shows, how serious problem cycling has. There is a rule about not changing line and there is everydays sprinting, which is quite different. Sprinters are following wheels or going for gaps and by doing that, they are changing their lines. Riders who are behind, has to follow or to brake. It is against the rules, but it is reality. As almost every sprint is somehow against the rules, referees have huge power in their decission making and there is high uncertainty about the outcome of some racing situations. E.g. if the rider in front of another rider changes direction and blocks another rider, but the blocked rider brakes and there is no accident, the rule is often not applied. If the blocked rider doesnt brake, than there is a problem. This means, that move of one rider is judged according to what the other rider does!

The solution is to unite the reality and the rules, so that there is more clarity for everybody. If the rule itselft could allow changing lines under certain circumstances, it would be possible to more clear judge race situations and also riders would clearly know, what is allowed and what not.

 

[blutto]

....VeloNews weighs in....

Why the jury is wrong on Sagan’s DSQ
Read more at http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/commentary/jury-wrong-sagans-dsq_442744#J0h0lh2zExr2mz38.99

Cheers

 

[deValtos]

I would suggest that the jury and UCI need to offer an apology to Sagan & Bora due to the impact their mistake has made.

 

[lartiste]

Re:

I would suggest that the jury and UCI need to offer an apology to Sagan & Bora due to the impact their mistake has made.

I assume, that UCI owes much more than just apology. I would expect that contract with sponsors (both Sagan and Bora) contain bonus clause - e.g. for each stage win and green jersey success. Therefore UCI would pay such bonuses to both. Otherwise it is up to Bora to sue UCI for damages ... .

To be absolutely clear - just for the procedural mistake, since if UCI really breach own procedural rules, then the decision is wrong regardless where the true is ... .

 

[jmdirt]

Those expecting an apology are forgetting that the UCI makes the rules and enforces the rules so...

 

[Martin]

Re:

I would suggest that the jury and UCI need to offer an apology to Sagan & Bora due to the impact their mistake has made.

Dream on... Can't afford to admit thy've been fooled by their sponsors.

But they dont have to. Each day as the Tour will continue, they'll smash their heads against the wall because sprints will be always the same and at the end at Champs Elysees it will be cler to everybody how incompetent and corrupted the jury is. But is that enough punishment?

 

[thiscocks]

I for one hope Sagan makes the Giro and Vuelta his GC races for the next couple of years. Sadly his team will probably tell him otherwise.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

I would suggest that the jury and UCI need to offer an apology to Sagan & Bora due to the impact their mistake has made.

Dream on... Can't afford to admit thy've been fooled by their sponsors.

But they dont have to. Each day as the Tour will continue, they'll smash their heads against the wall because sprints will be always the same and at the end at Champs Elysees it will be cler to everybody how incompetent and corrupted the jury is. But is that enough punishment?

Did you really expect Sagan to compete at the level of Kittel in those flat days?

 

[SKSemtex]

The more I know Sagan (not personally) the more I appreciate him and I again realize how stupid, selfish and egocentric I am.

He Just stopped all this madness with one single twitter to Marc.

I would be angry, bitterish, offended and it would take some time till I start to talk to Cav again.
I would state that I won't come to Tour anymore (I know it is not my decision but teams one who pays the millions ) and other similar *** and for two more weeks, I would feed this unti DQ madness.

Thanks GOD he is so different than the most people I know. He never whines, complains (without reason) always great to his teammates.

He is much more mature that I will ever be.

Probably I am mistaken but even Libertine probably finally admitted that he is not such a monster as he thought he was. You do not have to like him but you can respect him.

 

[Valanga]

The more I know Sagan (not personally) the more I appreciate him and I again realize how stupid, selfish and egocentric I am.

He Just stopped all this madness with one single twitter to Marc.

I would be angry, bitterish, offended and it would take some time till I start to talk to Cav again.
I would state that I won't come to Tour anymore (I know it is not my decision but teams one who pays the millions ) and other similar ****** and for two more weeks, I would feed this unti DQ madness.

Thanks GOD he is so different than the most people I know. He never whines, complains (without reason) always great to his teammates.

He is much more mature that I will ever be.

Probably I am mistaken but even Libertine probably finally admitted that he is not such a monster as he thought he was. You do not have to like him but you can respect him.

good god...

 

[Martin]

Re: Re:

I would suggest that the jury and UCI need to offer an apology to Sagan & Bora due to the impact their mistake has made.

Dream on... Can't afford to admit thy've been fooled by their sponsors.

But they dont have to. Each day as the Tour will continue, they'll smash their heads against the wall because sprints will be always the same and at the end at Champs Elysees it will be cler to everybody how incompetent and corrupted the jury is. But is that enough punishment?

Did you really expect Sagan to compete at the level of Kittel in those flat days?

I expected him to be competitive and try to win each day, especially win stage 14, 16, green jersey and most combative prize.
Now Kittel is facing only Demare, Greipel, fading Kristoff, always losing Bouhanni and few underdogs. However, keep an eye on those sprints's you'll see few more crashes, but be honest to me, do you expect anybody else to be disqualified? Anybody from France or Dimension Data?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Probably I am mistaken but even Libertine probably finally admitted that he is not such a monster as he thought he was. You do not have to like him but you can respect him.

His personality didn't come into it on this occasion. I was saying there's a strong case against his DQ, but also pointing out that the attempts by fans to absolve him of responsibility are ridiculous; that it's fine to say the penalty was too harsh, but not to pretend he was blameless; and some of the things about how ASO or UCI owe Bora an apology, or even sillier, money (he could just as easily have crashed out the next day, how do you quantify it?), and arguments presented as if, seeing as Sagan has been punished, the obvious conclusion is that cycling is to blame, authorities, conspiracies, Cavendish or in fact anybody but Sagan, are absurd and many such posts have been no less childish than my Richmond outburst against him.

 

[RedheadDane]

Yeah... it's not a matter between:

1: Totally innocent.
2: Disqualification completely fair.

He did play a role in that crash, but maybe the disqualification was overreacting a bit; the original punishment was fine. The time-deduction was maybe a bit pointless, though... sure, he was in top-10 - I think also without the time-bonuses he "lost" by not getting them by not actually getting the position he got in the sprint (did that make sense?) - but, let's be realistic here, would he still have been in top-10 after stage 5 anyway?
However, the attempt to get him back into the race + the fans going the race is ruuuuuuuuuuiiiiiiiiiiiiiined without Sagan! were/are ridiculous. Whether or not it was fair that he got disqualified, it's too late to change now, the Tour goes on.

 

[SKSemtex]

Probably I am mistaken but even Libertine probably finally admitted that he is not such a monster as he thought he was. You do not have to like him but you can respect him.

His personality didn't come into it on this occasion. I was saying there's a strong case against his DQ, but also pointing out that the attempts by fans to absolve him of responsibility are ridiculous; that it's fine to say the penalty was too harsh, but not to pretend he was blameless; and some of the things about how ASO or UCI owe Bora an apology, or even sillier, money (he could just as easily have crashed out the next day, how do you quantify it?), and arguments presented as if, seeing as Sagan has been punished, the obvious conclusion is that cycling is to blame, authorities, conspiracies, Cavendish or in fact anybody but Sagan, are absurd and many such posts have been no less childish than my Richmond outburst against him.

I was referring to your yesterday comment where you finally admitted you were a little bit childish towards him in Richmond. And that was a first time in this forum as I know so I started to think that may be, may be you start to think he is not such a monster after all. I respect your opinion. It is always a pleasure to read your comments.
I understand people who think he should have been sent home. But I hope I have a right to have my opinion which is different now although I agreed with DQ first day as well. I never mentioned conspiracy or agreed with sending hum back to the race. I mentioned that Bora could win the suit due to procedural mistakes.

 

[ihosama]

Re:

Yeah... it's not a matter between:

1: Totally innocent.
2: Disqualification completely fair.

He did play a role in that crash, but maybe the disqualification was overreacting a bit; the original punishment was fine. The time-deduction was maybe a bit pointless, though... sure, he was in top-10 - I think also without the time-bonuses he "lost" by not getting them by not actually getting the position he got in the sprint (did that make sense?) - but, let's be realistic here, would he still have been in top-10 after stage 5 anyway?
However, the attempt to get him back into the race + the fans going the race is ruuuuuuuuuuiiiiiiiiiiiiiined without Sagan! were/are ridiculous. Whether or not it was fair that he got disqualified, it's too late to change now, the Tour goes on.

I would say the same, had it been not for the context:

1) penalization was changed after political pressure
- this is not acceptable and is what turns the whole affair into a farce
2) no penalization was levied against Démare
- only confirming point 1) that the penalty was political in nature
3) despite UCI's own regulations, Sagan nor his team were given a chance to defend their case
- this cannot be justified in any way or form and only validates that the ruling was almost purely political

The fact fans are angry is not just a wrong decision of the jury. People make mistakes after all. The real issue that the decision is not only seen as wrong but that it stinks so much is the overall context making it hard to believe to be "just a mistake". The whole picture is just sad and only takes all the dirt behind to the light. IMO this is sad for cycling sport as a whole more so than for Sagan himself.