Teams & Riders Peter Sagan discussion thread.

[Extinction]

Does it count when he beats that same Cavendish at the biggest race pure sprinter could ever win?

Well, Worlds is Worlds. It's not a normal sprint. The distance and attrition of the race changes everything from pure speed, to how much is left in the tank, with no lead out trains. It's every man for himself in a final battle of attrition, which Sagan personifies. Cav's win in MSR was even more exceptional as a result, because la Primavera isn't a race for pure sprinters, but the fast men with great resistance like in fact Sagan. Although, yes, Sagan's victory over Cav was noteworthy, but almost expected, because it was like a MSR sprint, even if Cav got that one. By contrast in a normal stage race field sprint, where the distance is 50-60-70 km less, Cav likely wins over him 10 times out of 10 in a two-up match of top end speed. Not being a pure sprinter, Van Aert's Champs-Élysées victory was thus just as sensational as Cav's in MSR imho.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Does it count when he beats that same Cavendish at the biggest race pure sprinter could ever win?

It was already said at the time Cav shot him self by getting boxed in versus Sagan having the smarter ride. Which in hindsight was a blessing of sorts since could you imagine a WC having the 2017-2020 seasons that occurred.

 

[tobydawq]

It was already said at the time Cav shot him self by getting boxed in versus Sagan having the smarter ride. Which in hindsight was a blessing of sorts since could you imagine a WC having the 2017-2020 seasons that occurred.

Well, Cav was a WC...

 

[SHAD0W93]

Well, Cav was a WC...

Yes, but not the reigning WC at that time which was the point of what I said. It would have been arguably the worst follow up season to winning WC, plus the downward years after 2017 when the reign would have ended.

 

[tobydawq]

Yes, but not the reigning WC at that time which was the point of what I said. It would have been arguably the worst follow up season to winning WC, plus the downward years after 2017 when the reign would have ended.

True. Alaphilippe's 2022 was not too good, either. And maybe Cavendish would have had a better 2017 if he had been world champion, who knows?

 

[SHAD0W93]

True. Alaphilippe's 2022 was not too good, either. And maybe Cavendish would have had a better 2017 if he had been world champion, who knows?

Yes 2022 was bad but still better than Cav’s 2017 season. And maybe it would have, but he’d still have the chronic fatigue due to his 2016 season objectives and fight with mono. Maybe the Tour goes a little better for him but who knows.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Those top speed men al la Cavendish et al in a field sprint on the Champs Ellisse.

I think it’s wrong to look at Champs Elysees as the ultimate sprint test. First of all because normally (almost?) half the sprinters have abandoned the Tour before they entering Paris, and then also because most (sprint) teams have lost quite a few riders that normally would be involved in the lead out.

Also the old finish of Champs was a sprint where the position was more or less the main deciding factor and not the speed, when the finish line was so much closer to the last corner.

 

[Extinction]

I think it’s wrong to look at Champs Elysees as the ultimate sprint test. First of all because normally (almost?) half the sprinters have abandoned the Tour before they entering Paris, and then also because most (sprint) teams have lost quite a few riders that normally would be involved in the lead out.

Also the old finish of Champs was a sprint where the position was more or less the main deciding factor and not the speed, when the finish line was so much closer to the last corner.

Yea, but I meant the sprint that every sprinter wants to win. But it isn't true that half the sprinters always drop out before reaching Paris. In any case, Cavendish, who won four sprints mind you, was there.

 

[Peyroteo94]

How are we really comparing WVA to Sagan? I fail to see where WVA was the absolute number one contender and really delivered in the cobbled classics like Ronde or PR or we still can add the Worlds. Until he wins one of them, he is not even in the league of MVP and Sagan is more far away.

When it matters, once again, WVA failed to deliver.

 

[ij74]

@Extinction MVDP outsprints WVA once again. But sure, WVA is DEFINITELY better sprinter than Sagan...

 

[Extinction]

@Extinction MVDP outsprints WVA once again. But sure, WVA is DEFINITELY better sprinter than Sagan...

You are talking about a completely different discipline, at least that much is clear!

 

[Oldermanish]

You are talking about a completely different discipline, at least that much is clear!

Sagan is a pretty good mtb rider. He gave it up for a different full time job and is retiring soon. But that sprint was a SPRINT! Big Boy sh*t the whole way.

 

[Extinction]

Sagan is a pretty good mtb rider. He gave it up for a different full time job and is retiring soon. But that sprint was a SPRINT! Big Boy sh*t the whole way.

You talking about MvdP over Wout at CX Worlds? My feeling on that, is that a two-up sprint after an hour+long interval session on dirt, is hardly the same as a field sprint on the road. On the road in a field sprint like at the Tour, top Van Aert beats top MvdP and Sagan imho.

 

[Blanco]

Then again, if you're fast, you're fast...

 

[Netserk]

You talking about MvdP over Wout at CX Worlds? My feeling on that, is that a two-up sprint after an hour+long interval session on dirt, is hardly the same as a field sprint on the road. On the road in a field sprint like at the Tour, top Van Aert beats top MvdP and Sagan imho.

But for those three riders in question, it is far more valuable to be able to win small group sprints (and h2h sprints) than big bunch sprints. The former wins you De Ronde, the latter won't. Which is why Van Der Poel has won it twice and Van Aert hasn't.

 

[Panda Claws]

Van Aert just been unlucky

 

[Red Rick]

But for those three riders in question, it is far more valuable to be able to win small group sprints (and h2h sprints) than big bunch sprints. The former wins you De Ronde, the latter won't. Which is why Van Der Poel has won it twice and Van Aert hasn't.

Van Aert has underperformed quite a bit in small group sprints, but the sample size for the H2H in monuments is literally 1. MvdP also bottled a sprint vs Asgreen, and got handled sprinting for the win in Roubaix.

None of them are really invincible in smaller groups, which does make it more fun.

 

[Netserk]

Even Boonen lost small group sprints to Pozzato, Gilbert, and Hayman. They are difficult to dominate.

But the point still stands regardless of that. They are far more important to classics riders than big bunch sprints. While Van Aert is clearly a better peloton bunch sprinter than Van Der Poel, it is of little value.

 

[Extinction]

But for those three riders in question, it is far more valuable to be able to win small group sprints (and h2h sprints) than big bunch sprints. The former wins you De Ronde, the latter won't. Which is why Van Der Poel has won it twice and Van Aert hasn't.

I guess so, but the fact that Van Aert can win a top field sprint, a TT and a serious mountain stage even from the break, is a skill set to be reckoned with. Wout missed De Ronde last year, so who knows what he could have done. It is weird though that MvdP seems to have his number in the one on one confrontations, but the head plays into that too.

PS. Van Aert's speed in bunch sprints strangely has not helped him at the end of classics. Yet it may only be a matter of time, before that sprinting capacity joins him at the end of small group sprints at the classics. But only time will tell.

 

[tobydawq]

Van Aert has underperformed quite a bit in small group sprints, but the sample size for the H2H in monuments is literally 1. MvdP also bottled a sprint vs Asgreen, and got handled sprinting for the win in Roubaix.

None of them are really invincible in smaller groups, which does make it more fun.

What do you mean bottled? He lost to a better rider on the day.

 

[yaco]

I guess so, but the fact that Van Aert can win a top field sprint, a TT and a serious mountain stage even from the break, is a skill set to be reckoned with. Wout missed De Ronde last year, so who knows what he could have done. It is weird though that MvdP seems to have his number in the one on one confrontations, but the head plays into that too.

PS. Van Aert's speed in bunch sprints strangely has not helped him at the end of classics. Yet it may only be a matter of time, before that sprinting capacity joins him at the end of small group sprints at the classics. But only time will tell.

Van Aert does well in large bunch kicks for two reason - He is good at positioning and he sprints best off a solid speed - Small group sprints usually start from a lower pace.

 

[frisenfruitig]

What do you mean bottled? He lost to a better rider on the day.

He should have pedalled harder, the idiot!

 

[Extinction]

Van Aert does well in large bunch kicks for two reason - He is good at positioning and he sprints best off a solid speed - Small group sprints usually start from a lower pace.

I agree, it's momentum vs snap and MvdP has more snap.

 

[Unchained]

what is all the 'he didn't live up to his potential'? Maybe he did. Maybe he exceeded his potential. What are you basing his 'potential' on?

Funny that Sagan might find the veiled insult as a compliment!! He may think.. Wow I have been riding over my head for a while.. I only had X amount of potential!!
Funniest to me is his body type and what is playing out in elite mountain biking..
He says thats his last stop before the retirement home and speaking of potential.. Sort of flip to think that professional level mountain biking is backwater and if he applies himself he will be there.. from what I have seen there is a pretty deep talent pool in pro mtb..

 

[ij74]

Funny that Sagan might find the veiled insult as a compliment!! He may think.. Wow I have been riding over my head for a while.. I only had X amount of potential!!
Funniest to me is his body type and what is playing out in elite mountain biking..
He says thats his last stop before the retirement home and speaking of potential.. Sort of flip to think that professional level mountain biking is backwater and if he applies himself he will be there.. from what I have seen there is a pretty deep talent pool in pro mtb..

C´mon. It´s like Zlatan Ibrahimovic was changing football for futsal. He´d be easily one of the best there. Take it pls with grain of salt.