Philipe Gilbert Future Tour de France Champion

[ultimobici]

They are the French races I referred to in one of my first posts. Hilly races, not hilly classics

Zoals je weet, zever je zelf nu

So what's LBL?

 

[Franklin]

They are the French races I referred to in one of my first posts. Hilly races, not hilly classics

Zoals je weet, zever je zelf nu

You explicitely state Gilbert was nothing in Hilly classics. I give you plenty of evidence that convinced many experts that he had it in him, keep in mind that to some those races are (semi)classics (you are talking about monuments^^). Not only that but indeed he was there in finals. You just are feuding with Pistolero *shrug* so you over simplify things.

2004-14th at MSR
2005-6th at MSR

Check the winners list, it has all kinds of comers, sprint, Hill classic riders and GT specialists. You will deny this out of hand as it doesn't support your view, but that doesn't really matter for the argument:

It's clear that indeed it is possible that Gilbert transforms to a GT rider. Unlikely, but possible.

The whole problem with your stance is that denying it can't be done is squarely against the evidence of the classic specialists who did end up winning races. Gilbert could become a Di Luca

And Ultimobiici: A GT is a GT. "Easy" GT's often have lot's more crazy fireworks, "hard" gt's can be boring as hell. Kelly has proven to be a great GT specialist, you just can't belittle it. He just didn't win a Vuelta, he was high in the TdF as well.

And we can add Jalabert and Di Luca to the list of "transformed classic specialists".

Left or right, saying it is impossble for Gilbert to win a GT is premature. Unlikely, sure... impossible, no.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

MSR is no hilly classic

Sorry that a flat race with 2 non-steep hills at the end is a hilly classic for you..but not for the rest of the world

Even I climbed the Poggio on the outer blade for crying out loud

 

[El Pistolero]

How many non-hilly classics specialists/non-Puncheurs can get away on the Poggio after 290km from a raging peloton?

You need to be either good at sucking the right wheels and being strong enough to follow or be very explosive to get a large enough gap to make it till the last km.

Try and take the Poggio on your outer blade after those 290km at 40-50km/h average.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The Poggio is a hard obstacle after 290km, but after 150km it would be nothing.

Just because it has a small climb near the end doesn't make it a hilly classic. What makes that race difficult is its length, after which the few small climbs turn from minor irritations into challenging obstacle. No way is Milan-San Remo a hilly classic. Classic, for sure. Hilly one? Really pushing the definition there.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

However, the discussion was not how good a puncheur Gilbert is or how good his hill sprint was pre-2009. He was already a specialist and one of the best at that.

However, at the hilly classics, races of 250km with many hard hills (so not MSR and PT clearly), he never showed much pre-2009. Nothing special anyway.

And that was the whole discussion... again...

 

[ultimobici]

And Ultimobiici: A GT is a GT. "Easy" GT's often have lot's more crazy fireworks, "hard" gt's can be boring as hell. Kelly has proven to be a great GT specialist, you just can't belittle it. He just didn't win a Vuelta, he was high in the TdF as well.

And we can add Jalabert and Di Luca to the list of "transformed classic specialists".

Left or right, saying it is impossble for Gilbert to win a GT is premature. Unlikely, sure... impossible, no.

I wasn't belittling Kelly's win at all. But the dynamics of the GTs has changed immeasurably since 1988. The contenders for the Tour, Giro & Vuelta rode a much more varied and longer season. As a result there was a tighter range of talents IMO.

 

[El Pistolero]

The Poggio is a hard obstacle after 290km, but after 150km it would be nothing.

Just because it has a small climb near the end doesn't make it a hilly classic. What makes that race difficult is its length, after which the few small climbs turn from minor irritations into challenging obstacle. No way is Milan-San Remo a hilly classic. Classic, for sure. Hilly one? Really pushing the definition there.

Not saying it is, I'm saying that it usually takes someone who is good in the hilly classics to attack on the Poggio and get away with it in Milan-San Remo.

 

[Franklin]

MSR is no hilly classic

Sorry that a flat race with 2 non-steep hills at the end is a hilly classic for you..but not for the rest of the world

Even I climbed the Poggio on the outer blade for crying out loud

Isn't it amazing that GT specialists win a flat race? But it still doesn't matter:

Is it possible that Gilbert wins a GT?

 

[Franklin]

I wasn't belittling Kelly's win at all. But the dynamics of the GTs has changed immeasurably since 1988. The contenders for the Tour, Giro & Vuelta rode a much more varied and longer season. As a result there was a tighter range of talents IMO.

It still doesn't invalidate Di Luca.

And don't forget that Contador has a pretty long season as well. Paris Nice, LBL, Giro, TdF. Vuelta. He won't do them all, but he does several of them each year. Same goes for the Schlecks and Nibali.

Sure, it's more specialized as in the 80ies, but it's not as extreme as it was in the JU/LA era. In fact it's even more varied than during Big Mig's reign (though he did the Giro TdF three times, finished 1 Vuelta/Tdf double and was decent at the worlds)

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

Is it just that I don't remember, or might it be that there isn't a single good result from Gilbert at any kind of longer climb?

 

[ultimobici]

It still doesn't invalidate Di Luca.

And don't forget that Contador has a pretty long season as well. Paris Nice, LBL, Giro, TdF. Vuelta. He won't do them all, but he does several of them each year. Same goes for the Schlecks and Nibali.

Sure, it's more specialized as in the 80ies, but it's not as extreme as it was in the JU/LA era. In fact it's even more varied than during Big Mig's reign (though he did the Giro TdF three times, finished 1 Vuelta/Tdf double and was decent at the worlds)

Di Luca? I think, based on his run-ins with the authorities over the last few years, he is possibly the worst example unless you're looking at "that" kind of transformation.....

I take the view that a classics rider will develop to the point where they may break the top-10 but are highly unlikely to win a GT while a GT rider will be able to challenge in the Ardennes/Lombardia.

Riders that have appeared to do the former have turned out to either be a true GT contender in the first place (Hinault) or had help from either the course/calendar or other means. On reflection, Kelly's Vuelta cannot be considered a GT in modern terms due to it's calendar position, prominence & route. There were no big climbs like there were in the Giro & Tour, nor were there any of the major GT contenders from those races. A rider of Kelly's abilities was able to exert a greater level of control over his opponents than he could ever hope to in the Tour. His best results in the Tour were as a result of his ability to limit his losses in the mountains, but he also perhaps benefited from the time-bonuses that used to be awarded to the stage winners & runners up.

To use Contador's Fleche & Liege performances to support a rider like Gilbert crossing the other way is flawed IMO.

 

[Franklin]

Di Luca? I think, based on his run-ins with the authorities over the last few years, he is possibly the worst example unless you're looking at "that" kind of transformation.....

It's a possibility.... and that is what is being discussed here. Also, is Di Luca dirtier than the top Gt specialists?

I take the view that a classics rider will develop to the point where they may break the top-10 but are highly unlikely to win a GT while a GT rider will be able to challenge in the Ardennes/Lombardia.

History proves you are right, but that isn't the issue raised here.

His best results in the Tour were as a result of his ability to limit his losses in the mountains, but he also perhaps benefited from the time-bonuses that used to be awarded to the stage winners & runners up.

No, he didn't get much Boni those years. And once again I'd say you are downplaying Kelly. A GT is a GT.

To use Contador's Fleche & Liege performances to support a rider like Gilbert crossing the other way is flawed IMO.

I used it to say that seasons are lengthening again, I didn't use it as reverse evidence.

 

[jens_attacks]

the moment we all waited for is coming...(although i hate very much how.van den broeck will be missed these next two weeks)

PHIL is going to fight for overall of tour de france!!!
ALLEZ PHIL!

C'est malheureux ce qui est arrivé avec Van den Broeck, mais le Tour continue. Avec Greipel, on va essayer de gagner encore une étape au moins, je vais tout faire aussi pour ramener le maillot vert à Paris, mais, maintenant qu'il ne faut plus travailler pour Van den Broeck, je vais prendre les étapes de montagne comme un test."

"Je veux voir jusqu'où je peux aller. En tout cas, je ne compte pas me relever après deux kilomètres d'ascension dans les cols. On verra jusqu'où cela peut m'amener au classement général"


http://www.cyclismactu.net/news-tdf-philippe-gilbert-ne-fait-pas-une-croix-sur-le-general-17127.html

 

[just some guy]

the moment we all waited for is coming...(although i hate very much how.van den broeck will be missed these next two weeks)

PHIL is going to fight for overall of tour de france!!!
ALLEZ PHIL!

C'est malheureux ce qui est arrivé avec Van den Broeck, mais le Tour continue. Avec Greipel, on va essayer de gagner encore une étape au moins, je vais tout faire aussi pour ramener le maillot vert à Paris, mais, maintenant qu'il ne faut plus travailler pour Van den Broeck, je vais prendre les étapes de montagne comme un test."

"Je veux voir jusqu'où je peux aller. En tout cas, je ne compte pas me relever après deux kilomètres d'ascension dans les cols. On verra jusqu'où cela peut m'amener au classement général"


http://www.cyclismactu.net/news-tdf-philippe-gilbert-ne-fait-pas-une-croix-sur-le-general-17127.html

Bad translation

Omega Pharma-Lotto has lost its last major component to the overall ranking in the person of Jurgen Van den Broeck. Fifth year, the Belgian was again focused his entire season on the Tour but with the fall in the descent of the Pas de Peyrol, all his hopes and those of his team flew. But the Belgian team must regroup as it still has great things to do through including Philippe Gilbert, who has ambition:

"It's unfortunate what happened with Van den Broeck, but the Tour continues. With Greipel, we will try to win at least one step further, I will do as to bring the green jersey in Paris, but now that 'do more work for Van den Broeck, I'll take the mountain stages as a test. " Yes, the Walloon goes well try to keep the pedal to the very best:

"I want to see how far I can go. Anyway, I'm not going to get up after two kilometers of ascent into the hills. We'll see how far it can take me to the overall" he said with of the Last Hour.


E

 

[Ramira]

Very interesting. I doubt he can keep up with the best of the climbers this tour but I can't wait to see exactly how good he can be in the high mountains with his fast-twitch muscles.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

wow, will be interesting to see

I hope gilbert turns into a jalabert _O_

 

[El Pistolero]

Will be hard though, compared to the favorites he already wasted a lot more energy in the first 10 days. But I think he can go very far. As I said before, I think Phil has the potential to be up there in the Vuelta one day.

And I wouldn't rule him out for stage 16 and 17.

 

[just some guy]

Will be hard though, compared to the favorites he already wasted a lot more energy in the first 10 days. But I think he can go very far. As I said before, I think Phil has the potential to be up there in the Vuelta one day.

And I wouldn't rule him out for stage 16 and 17.

Any more than Evans - Nope so it willbe a good test - he will get a shed load of Green points as well

 

[DenisMenchov]

Has Gillbert dyed his hair?

 

[Ramira]

Has Gillbert dyed his hair?

Yiap, as some form of celebration after winning the Belgian National Championships.

 

[El Pistolero]

Has Gillbert dyed his hair?

Yeah blond. Dirk de Wolf has laughed at him for it and he was pretty mad then Was shown on Vive le Velo. You could see how annoyed he was lol. Very funny.

 

[DenisMenchov]

Yiap, as some form of celebration after winning the Belgian National Championships.

He looks much better now. I might consider doing it too

 

[Ramira]

Yeah blond. Dirk de Wolf has laughed at him for it and he was pretty mad then Was shown on Vive le Velo. You could see how annoyed he was lol. Very funny.

I remember that, it was brilliant. Gilbert was none to happy to get that response by Dirk de Wolf televised .

 

[Franklin]

Bad translation

But, but, but... so many people say this is impossible... why does Gilbert even try?