Philipe Gilbert Future Tour de France Champion

[El Pistolero]

Appeal to false authority. Madiot is not an anti-doping expert.

De Mondenard is.

Oh, I'm not using that as evidence Gilbert is clean or anything(I could care less frankly). Just that he isn't surprised, so he must have seen some of that big potential Gilbert had back in the FDJ days.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Once again, I wasn't wrong, Gilbert pre-2009 was not top at hilly classics. He only had 1 top 10 in the Worlds 2007 and some attacks in San Remo and Paris Tours which is no sign at all for hilly classics. Never was.
We're on a repetition of arguments here... like a vicious cycle.

 

[El Pistolero]

Actually, T-A/Milan-San Remo 2007 is where the world got to know Riccardo Ricco(outside Italy). Same year as he got second at Giro di Lombardia. But Milan-San Remo was no sign, I get it. Lol, not. It was a sign actually.

You didn't say anything about being top, you said he didn't do well in them.

If getting away from the sprinter teams on the Poggio after 290km is not a sign of your capacities on the hills then nothing is.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

It's a fact he didn't go well in any of the hilly classics.
1 World Championship doesn't change that. Or we might as well say that Martin Elmiger is going well in hilly classics because he had a top 10 in that same World championship

God you keep contradicting yourself to the point it becomes hilarious

 

[El Pistolero]

It's not a fact really, you just look at results on paper instead of what they did at the road.

So, I guess LBL 2011 is also a joke now because Greg made it into the top 10 of LBL. What did that loser ever show on the hills.

And look, Nick Nuyens in the top 10 of a hilly worlds in 2008. What did he ever show in hilly classics.

Instead of looking at Martin Elmiger take a look at the names above Gilbert. Sheesh, are you really arguing that worlds of 2007 is no indication towards a hilly classic.

He wasn't much better in the worlds of 2009 compared to 2007. And that's a fact.

Like I said, pretty much every classic has at least one donkey in its top 10. Gilbert wasn't the donkey in 2007 though.
Besides Martin Elmiger got eight at Lombardia in 2005.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

It's a fact that pre-2009 he didn't do anything in hilly classics, and only in 2009, he showed himself as a top contendor for them.

Before that, usually most rider show some kind of good riding or result in them. All Gilbert did was 1 time a suicide break, and 1 time a 24th place or something in LBL.

So, pre-2009, Gilbert was 'meh' in hilly classics. He was like Pozzato almost, good enough for San Remo, not good enough when the race is really wrecking you with as many hills as Amstel or Liege had.

That's the whole point of the discussion. So...period.

 

[El Pistolero]

Yeah, he's like Pozzato

When have you ever seen Pozzato in AGR and LBL going for his own chances?

In case you didn't know, Pozzato is quite good in Paris-Roubaix. At least was before he got mentally broken this season. Besides Pozzato could do a lot of things with the right attitude, he's one big talent. But anyway, of course Pozatto is not going over the hills like Gilbert, he likes the cobbles too much, so focuses his season on that.

Besides not even Cancellara had any difficulty on these "tough" hills of AGR before he crashed.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I give up, if you can't even read and interpret my arguments the correct way, then how am I ever going to explain things to you?
Revert to 3-year olds language? Don't have the time for that.

Jebus if you don't even understand the Pozzato remark and start about AGR and LBL, then you didn't get it.

 

[ultimobici]

Once again, I wasn't wrong, Gilbert pre-2009 was not top at hilly classics. He only had 1 top 10 in the Worlds 2007 and some attacks in San Remo and Paris Tours which is no sign at all for hilly classics. Never was.
We're on a repetition of arguments here... like a vicious cycle.

The repetition is due to your lack of research, mate.

Look up his palmares and you'll see plenty of high placings and wins in hilly races well before 2009.

http://www.cyclingbase.com/Philippe-Gilbert.html

 

[El Pistolero]

You're saying Pozzato is not good enough for the hills of AGR/LBL even though he never gave them a serious try. Yeah, ok that's just not an argument. Pozatto decided to go for the cobbles. Did a good job at them from young age already especially in 2006 helping Boonen.

Trust me Pozzato will be there next year in the Worlds.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

But that's the thing, Pozzato DID give the AGR some serious tries.

It never worked out for him though

2003: 74th
2004: 75th
2005: 78th (hey at least he is consistant)
2006: 52th
2010: 80th

 

[El Pistolero]

But that's the thing, Pozzato DID give the AGR some serious tries.

It never worked out for him though

2003: 74th
2004: 75th
2005: 78th (hey at least he is consistant)
2006: 52th
2010: 80th

You do know he was a domestique right?

My god he didn't win AGR when he was 20 years old on his first try! What a complete lack of talent on hills!

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Pff, a 20-year old Dekker still finished 34th as domestique...
A 22-year old Baugnies still finished LBL as 24th

Just saying.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Oh, I'm not using that as evidence Gilbert is clean or anything(I could care less frankly). Just that he isn't surprised, so he must have seen some of that big potential Gilbert had back in the FDJ days.

Ah, I see.

I agree that Gilbert could possibly become a GT contender in 3 years or so, if he really wanted to. But the chances of that happening are slim to none. He has made his ambitions perfectly clear.

 

[El Pistolero]

Ah, I see.

I agree that Gilbert could possibly become a GT contender in 3 years or so, if he really wanted to. But the chances of that happening are slim to none. He has made his ambitions perfectly clear.

Hey, I have the same opinion

Though I would love to see him try in 3 years or so at the Vuelta. Would be cool to see where his limits are.

 

[roundabout]

The only limiting factor is the amount of doping a rider can get away with...

 

[ultimobici]

It's a fact that pre-2009 he didn't do anything in hilly classics, and only in 2009, he showed himself as a top contendor for them.

Before that, usually most rider show some kind of good riding or result in them. All Gilbert did was 1 time a suicide break, and 1 time a 24th place or something in LBL.

So, pre-2009, Gilbert was 'meh' in hilly classics. He was like Pozzato almost, good enough for San Remo, not good enough when the race is really wrecking you with as many hills as Amstel or Liege had.

That's the whole point of the discussion. So...period.

In the 2007 LBL he was 16th, just ahead of Ricco. Look up a rider's results before declaring he's done nothing. To say he didn't show he was a top contender prior to 2009 is to ignore his age. He was born in mid 1982, so the time up to 2006/7 he was a young developing rider. Sure he didn't set the world alight, but his progression has been a steady one. Some riders burst onto the world stage and burn out, others steadily grow as Gilbert has. Very, very few start young and continue to dominate without "help". The last of the "natural" talents of that calibre, IMO, was Hinault.

http://www.cyclingbase.com/resultatcal.php?id=10&idsaison=1&idtitle=2

 

[Peyote]

Once again, I wasn't wrong, Gilbert pre-2009 was not top at hilly classics. He only had 1 top 10 in the Worlds 2007 and some attacks in San Remo and Paris Tours which is no sign at all for hilly classics. Never was.
We're on a repetition of arguments here... like a vicious cycle.

OK You are right. Gilbert didn't had the top results at the hilly classics before 2009, but those races weren't his main objective before then. I believe if he peaked to those classics from 2006 and further, he definitely would have much better results in those kind of races. Like top 10 or podium, why not. A win? Possible, but difficult because he lacked the power. I remember him saying that, I think. He needed more strength to play with the big guys

 

[Peyote]

And personally I don't believe in Gilbert as a future Tour, Giro or Vuelta champion. No good time trial. And climbing in the high mountains with the best.. I don't think so. But if he tried he could get a top 10 in the Vuelta, maybe 7th or so. Not higher.

He just should focus on stage wins and one day races. Liège, Vlaanderen, Worlds and Roubaix. I think he can win Roubaix some day.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

In the 2007 LBL he was 16th, just ahead of Ricco. Look up a rider's results before declaring he's done nothing. To say he didn't show he was a top contender prior to 2009 is to ignore his age. He was born in mid 1982, so the time up to 2006/7 he was a young developing rider. Sure he didn't set the world alight, but his progression has been a steady one. Some riders burst onto the world stage and burn out, others steadily grow as Gilbert has. Very, very few start young and continue to dominate without "help". The last of the "natural" talents of that calibre, IMO, was Hinault.

http://www.cyclingbase.com/resultatcal.php?id=10&idsaison=1&idtitle=2

Exactly, he steadily grew. I never said something about that. I only said that pre-2009 he didn't do anything in hilly classics. Which is a fact...

You are actually agreeing with me. However, if you look the past few pages El Pistolero disagrees

 

[El Pistolero]

Doing nothing pre 2009 and then winning the hilly classics doesn't sound as steadily growing to me.

I said he did do will in hilly classics and hilly races before 2009. Hence his 2009/2010/2011 season isn't that big surprise to me. Ok, 2011 is, but only because of FW.

 

[Franklin]

Exactly, he steadily grew. I never said something about that. I only said that pre-2009 he didn't do anything in hilly classics. Which is a fact...

You are actually agreeing with me. However, if you look the past few pages El Pistolero disagrees

Zoals ze zeggen: je zevert en dat weet je.

Philippe was indeed very good in hilly one day courses (Gp Wallonie, Trophee Grimpeurs). He even won the Tour de Haute Var, which is traditionally a difficult hilly race.

You are just arguing with Pistolero and that colors your judgement. To maintain that Philippe wasn't a person for hilly courses or that he wasn't seen as a future Ardennes prodigy is silly. Definitely considering you are Dutch speaking, so you know of the mountain of Belgian and Dutch interviews. They wouldn't have been so interested had he been just "meh".

But Timmy, what you are dismissing is quite idiotic. Noone says it's likely Philippe will transform in a GT rider. But it's clear as day that it is possible. The past has shown that it can be done and I'm sure it will be done in the future.

Or you can just deny the existence of Kelly and Jalabert? As you can't I assume you will now admit that it is indedd possible

/argument

 

[ultimobici]

Exactly, he steadily grew. I never said something about that. I only said that pre-2009 he didn't do anything in hilly classics. Which is a fact...

You are actually agreeing with me. However, if you look the past few pages El Pistolero disagrees

No, the way you phrased it came across as saying he was nowhere prior to 2009 which is just not the case.

16th in LBL at less than 30" at 24 is not the result of a "Done nothing".

Take the time to read through his results from 2002 onward and you'll see that we are not in agreement at all. Gilbert has shown promise from an early age and his move to OPL seems to have finished the process off. Madiot has a track record of not pushing his riders too early so they very often under-perform early on. But the result is that they are stronger later on when they can marry that strength to tactical maturity and achieve what Gilbert has in the last three seasons.

 

[ultimobici]

Zoals ze zeggen: je zevert en dat weet je.

Philippe was indeed very good in hilly one day courses (Gp Wallonie, Trophee Grimpeurs). He even won the Tour de Haute Var, which is traditionally a difficult hilly race.

You are just arguing with Pistolero and that colors your judgement. To maintain that Philippe wasn't a person for hilly courses or that he wasn't seen as a future Ardennes prodigy is silly. Definitely considering you are Dutch speaking, so you know of the mountain of Belgian and Dutch interviews. They wouldn't have been so interested had he been just "meh".

But Timmy, what you are dismissing is quite idiotic. Noone says it's likely Philippe will transform in a GT rider. But it's clear as day that it is possible. The past has shown that it can be done and I'm sure it will be done in the future.

Or you can just deny the existence of Kelly and Jalabert? As you can't I assume you will now admit that it is indedd possible

/argument

WHile I agree with most of your post, the last paragraph is wrong in my view.

Kelly won his Vuelta when it was a very very different race. Due to the slot it occupied on the calendar there were no really big mountains, indeed the 88 edition was criticised for this very fact as it placed the home riders at a disadvantage to Kelly & Dietzen. Kelly's strength was his ability to bury himself in the mountains to limit losses and then claw back time in the time-trial.

The GT courses of the 80's and to a degree the 90's were very different to the ones devised now. Plan des Corones, Angliru etc were deemed too steep until 8 & 9 speed systems allowed wide enough gearing. Until the late 80's 42 was the most common lowest chainring it was impractical to have anything bigger than 24 on the back. Couple that with crappy weather in April in the Spanish mountains and you had a much less mountainous route to contend with.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Zoals ze zeggen: je zevert en dat weet je.

Philippe was indeed very good in hilly one day courses (Gp Wallonie, Trophee Grimpeurs). He even won the Tour de Haute Var, which is traditionally a difficult hilly race.

You are just arguing with Pistolero and that colors your judgement. To maintain that Philippe wasn't a person for hilly courses or that he wasn't seen as a future Ardennes prodigy is silly. Definitely considering you are Dutch speaking, so you know of the mountain of Belgian and Dutch interviews. They wouldn't have been so interested had he been just "meh".

But Timmy, what you are dismissing is quite idiotic. Noone says it's likely Philippe will transform in a GT rider. But it's clear as day that it is possible. The past has shown that it can be done and I'm sure it will be done in the future.

Or you can just deny the existence of Kelly and Jalabert? As you can't I assume you will now admit that it is indedd possible

/argument

They are the French races I referred to in one of my first posts. Hilly races, not hilly classics

Zoals je weet, zever je zelf nu