Plasticizer

[Ripper]

Um, he is guilty. I think 12-24 months is coming up soon.

 

[Pedaaldanser]

I agree. In at least one study of food preparation their were some very high levels reported especially when fatty foods were cooked or stored in containers with DEHP in them. For example chicken cooked in a new teflon frying pan had massive levels of DEHP. I will be very hard to connect the dots on this.

Sounds like THE MEAT was prepared in a new teflon pan!

 

[webvan]

Just bumped into this : "The theory behind the test is that when blood is transfused, there is a very considerable surge in the levels of DEHP in the body. Several sources have claimed that analyses on samples taken from Tour winner Alberto Contador during this year’s race have determined that a transfusion may have taken place. The timing of this transfusion would be around the same time that he tested positive for minute traces of Clenbuterol.

“There's enough samples to show a clear pattern,” a person familiar with Contador’s case told the Daily News. "They increased and they decreased afterwards in a way that you would expect if a transfusion occurred. . . . It's nothing like the levels that you would get from day-to-day exposure."

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...r-2010-Tour-and-US-Postal-doping-enquiry.aspx

Looks like that ship has sailed, another liar caught with his pants down, this will never change will it. I suppose they all hope they'll get away with it based on some technicality. I say ban the guy for 4 YEARS for doping AND lying. For a guy who comes clean, so to speak, the minute the B sample comes in, reduce to a year.

 

[Merckx index]

I agree. In at least one study of food preparation their were some very high levels reported especially when fatty foods were cooked or stored in containers with DEHP in them. For example chicken cooked in a new teflon frying pan had massive levels of DEHP. I will be very hard to connect the dots on this.

Do you have a link to this? Again, all the control studies I have seen show that while, yes, metabolites of DEHP and certain other plastics are indeed found in everyone, the levels are an order of magnitude (10 x) or more lower than what is being alleged for Bert. And as also pointed out by many, levels in controls are stable. You get the same level, more or less, day after day. A dramatic but temporary increase is the hallmark of transfusion.

Possibly someone could eat some food stored and/or cooked in a container with DEHP and show a similar spike. But I would like to see evidence of that. We do know from Segura's work that hospital patients exposed to DEHP in catheters, infusions, etc., but who did not actually have a blood transfusion, generally exhibited much lower DEHP levels than transfused patients, though a few at the upper end did have fairly high levels.

 

[icefire]

Sounds like THE MEAT was prepared in a new teflon pan!

They must be looking for one of those pans right now.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

I agree. In at least one study of food preparation their were some very high levels reported especially when fatty foods were cooked or stored in containers with DEHP in them. For example chicken cooked in a new teflon frying pan had massive levels of DEHP. I will be very hard to connect the dots on this.

Furthermore, given the known health impacts of DEHP then it is highly likely that manufacturers of medical products for infusions are working towards reducing the levels in their products. So this kind of approach is going to have a limited life span.

So his ONE meal, the one with the tainted beef (improbable), brought from Spain (verified lie) was prepared in a teflon pan? Who prepares a steak for an athletes' consumption by frying it in a pan?

This approach MAY have a limited life span... So, I suppose they might as well not use it, right?

 

[Cobblestones]

They must be looking for one of those pans right now.

And there will be a receipt. Probably backdated.

 

[Merckx index]

Here is some rare good news for Bert:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20797930

This study reports huge variations in urine concentrations of MEHHP, a DEHP metabolite, within the same individual over time. E.g., one individual experienced a 10-fold increase within a few hours, another a 100-fold increase within a few days. The absolute values, moreover, were as high as 1000 ug/g creatine, which probably corresponds to 1000+ ng/ml.

The key seems to be to sample the urine frequently, rather than just once a day, or a total 24 hour cumulative sample. Spikes are possible in non-transfused subjects, something that may greatly complicate the WADA test.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

Okay, I've been pretty much incapacitated by a sinus infection since the Clenbuterol announcement, and a couple of questions have popped up as I"ve been trying to catch up....

1) Does anybody know the specific type(s) of plasticizers reported to have been found?

2) Do plastic blood bags contain Bis phenol A?

Canada has recently banned BPA from any and all baby products. I think the decision was based on it being an endocrine disruptor. From what I've been told, it's particularly disruptive to natural testosterone production.

 

[avanti]

They'll just switch to glass

This morning I visited my medical center for a routine blood test and I asked if the syringes were glass or plastic. I was told that glass used to be used extensively (syringes, urine sample beakers, some blood storage containers)
but the fear of being cut by broken glass and getting hepatitis has pretty much eliminated glass these days. (Also some problem about using glass in centrifuges which I did not understand)

 

[python]

i just heard from a fellow skier that fis medical director let it known - at the coming 2011 wc in oslo every skier will undergo the plasiticizer test alleged to kill berto.

fis +1, uci 0

 

[luckyboy]

Would it be better to warn them? I probably wouldn't.

 

[python]

Would it be better to warn them? I probably wouldn't.

skiing is a smaller sport than cycling. probably by a factor of 10 re competitor numbers. if they didn't you are likely to see only juniors on telle. you know, that's how commercial sports work. the good news is, fis is leading again.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Okay, I've been pretty much incapacitated by a sinus infection since the Clenbuterol announcement, and a couple of questions have popped up as I"ve been trying to catch up....

Buddy! Clenbuterol would've help clear that right up! Apart from the infection... Hey, it helps to be able to breathe out your ears.

 

[rata de sentina]

So his ONE meal, the one with the tainted beef (improbable), brought from Spain (verified lie) was prepared in a teflon pan? Who prepares a steak for an athletes' consumption by frying it in a pan?

This approach MAY have a limited life span... So, I suppose they might as well not use it, right?

Did I say that? let me see (reads own post), nope. This raises serious questions either regarding your capability to comprehend English or your propensity for trolling.

 

[sartain]

Okay, I've been pretty much incapacitated by a sinus infection since the Clenbuterol announcement, and a couple of questions have popped up as I"ve been trying to catch up....

1) Does anybody know the specific type(s) of plasticizers reported to have been found?

2) Do plastic blood bags contain Bis phenol A?

Canada has recently banned BPA from any and all baby products. I think the decision was based on it being an endocrine disruptor. From what I've been told, it's particularly disruptive to natural testosterone production.

What about when these riders receive common saline for dehydration, could they not claim this was the situation?

 

[HoustonHammer]

What about when these riders receive common saline for dehydration, could they not claim this was the situation?

An IV saline drip for dehydration is illegal and would get the same 2 year suspension as any other kind of doping. IV's are allowed only in very rare cases like hospitalization.

 

[BigFatSal]

Does anyone know just how much of a risk is involved in doping in the middle of a tour? Would it be a case of once the testers have done the business in the morning you are free to hook a bag of blood to your arm with no worry of being caught in flagrante ? Would there be a higher risk of being caught on rest days when riders are more likely to dope?

I'm just intrigued by the logistics of it all. Maybe a look out with mobile phone at the ready is all that's needed.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

What about when these riders receive common saline for dehydration, could they not claim this was the situation?

Not sure what they'd be claiming due to possible long-term, elevated exposure to BPA. Perhaps some new bits and pieces.

 

[javelinaman]

Other plasticizer sources

What about athletes who are rehydrated via IV saline? I also grind my teeth (recall Tyler Hamilton chewing his to the nubs...) and wear a plastic bite guard when I ride. It is chewy, so it must have a plasticizer as well.

 

[Bag_O_Wallet]

What about athletes who are rehydrated via IV saline? I also grind my teeth (recall Tyler Hamilton chewing his to the nubs...) and wear a plastic bite guard when I ride. It is chewy, so it must have a plasticizer as well.

I'd imagine that water bottles that have been stewing in the sun for hours are a valuable source of plasticizers.

Food containers usually have a lovely layer of plasticizers on the inside too. I wonder how much (if any) of that leaches out into bars and gels as one rides - especially when it's a thousand degrees out.

 

[pmcg76]

I'd imagine that water bottles that have been stewing in the sun for hours are a valuable source of plasticizers.

Food containers usually have a lovely layer of plasticizers on the inside too. I wonder how much (if any) of that leaches out into bars and gels as one rides - especially when it's a thousand degrees out.

This is the question that has been getting me, surely plasticizers would be present in lots of things. For example if a rider has a glucose drip or is that also illegal like a saline drip. Sorry, I am not totally clued up on these things.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

All IV use is banned unless you're hospitalized.

 

[dbrower]

Yes, fluids stored in bottles get leached plasticisers. Apparently this accumulates in you as part of your baseline levels, which vary by a predictable amount. Fluids taken with an IV result in very different looking levels, that spike over the baseline, and decay quite differently.

Others have noted that currently all IV use is banned, so that's not a way out. But we also don't yet have data whether the blips in level from saline are the same as the blips that come from blood transfusions.

As Rabin noted, it may be hard to use the test as the sole evidence of doping, but it is certainly supporting evidence for other things that would be dispositive on their own.

In particular, I think the corroborating evidence of the plasticisers creates a larger burden for proving that the presence of some substance was from food or supplement contamination, especially if you don't have any of the contaminated stuff available to prove the likelihood of the claim.

Like my attitude on the Landis case or not, I saw very closely how the system works, and I can't see Contador getting off on the clenbuterol.

-dB