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Polish

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Colm.Murphy said:
I hope we can all appreciate how trite Mr. Fabiani's quote in the NY Daily News article is: "We have no concerns at all about it," said Armstrong's spokesperson Mark Fabiani.

Given all of this, the noose is tightening more quickly than what I could have ever thought.

Colm, what SHOULD Mr Fabiani be concerned about in this matter?

What Federal Charges could be launched for Blood Transfusing or Saline Hydration? Is that even illegal?

And "noose tightening"? C'mon, There has not even been an Idictment yet.
Mr Novitzsky is as awesome solo in front of a Grand Jury as Tommy D is solo on a training ride. Stuff of legends.

But lets wait until there is some Awesome Competition, at a trial for instance, before we go tightening any nooses lol. Give Lance's Defense TEAM a year and a half to prepare and they will come up with something better than Meat lol again.
 
May 26, 2010
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Polish said:
Colm, what SHOULD Mr Fabiani be concerned about in this matter?

What Federal Charges could be launched for Blood Transfusing or Saline Hydration? Is that even illegal?

And "noose tightening"? C'mon, There has not even been an Idictment yet.
Mr Novitzsky is as awesome solo in front of a Grand Jury as Tommy D is solo on a training ride. Stuff of legends.

But lets wait until there is some Awesome Competition, at a trial for instance, before we go tightening any nooses lol. Give Lance's Defense TEAM a year and a half to prepare and they will come up with something better than Meat lol again.

speaking of meat, are you not due to be polishing your 1 charge right now?
 
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Polish said:
Colm, what SHOULD Mr Fabiani be concerned about in this matter?

What Federal Charges could be launched for Blood Transfusing or Saline Hydration? Is that even illegal?

And "noose tightening"? C'mon, There has not even been an Idictment yet.
Mr Novitzsky is as awesome solo in front of a Grand Jury as Tommy D is solo on a training ride. Stuff of legends.

But lets wait until there is some Awesome Competition, at a trial for instance, before we go tightening any nooses lol. Give Lance's Defense TEAM a year and a half to prepare and they will come up with something better than Meat lol again.

Obfuscation and denial are your strongest suit.
 
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Polish said:
Colm, what SHOULD Mr Fabiani be concerned about in this matter?

What Federal Charges could be launched for Blood Transfusing or Saline Hydration? Is that even illegal?

And "noose tightening"? C'mon, There has not even been an Idictment yet.
Mr Novitzsky is as awesome solo in front of a Grand Jury as Tommy D is solo on a training ride. Stuff of legends.

But lets wait until there is some Awesome Competition, at a trial for instance, before we go tightening any nooses lol. Give Lance's Defense TEAM a year and a half to prepare and they will come up with something better than Meat lol again.

To prepare Armstrong's TEAM actually needs to know what is going on, right now they know nothing....... except that a bunch of guys who know a lot have gone into a little room for a long time to talk about a guy they don't really like that much.
 
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Colm.Murphy said:
Much of these questions are already discussed and/or answered. The Ny Daily News article posits that there is no reason one cold not re-test stored, frozen samples for DEHP, as it is not a compound subject to degradation like a steroid.

hold on, are we really taking anything in the NY Daily News seriously? what's next? will we be posting articles from the Enquirer if it backs up your "facts?"
 

Polish

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Race Radio said:
To prepare Armstrong's TEAM actually needs to know what is going on, right now they know nothing....... except that a bunch of guys who know a lot have gone into a little room for a long time to talk about a guy they don't really like that much.

Race, Lance and his Defense Team know MORE than anyone about what is going on. Certainly more than Novitzsky knows. Much more, of course.

Lance and his team will assume Novitzsky knows everything, and will prepare and double prepare accordingly. You realize that, right?
 
Though it startles me to say it, Polish is actually right above.

Some people are letting their desire to see Armstrong fall get in the way of their assessments. Whatever you think about him, Armstrong is not stupid. More importantly, his very expensive lawyers are not stupid. I'm sure that Novitzky and his people aren't banking on Armstrong making a series of catastrophic tactical judgments. That could happen, but the chances are that Armstrong's people will play a smart game.
 

Polish

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Zinoviev Letter said:
Though it startles me to say it, Polish is actually right above.

Some people are letting their desire to see Armstrong fall get in the way of their assessments. Whatever you think about him, Armstrong is not stupid. More importantly, his very expensive lawyers are not stupid. I'm sure that Novitzky and his people aren't banking on Armstrong making a series of catastrophic tactical judgments. That could happen, but the chances are that Armstrong's people will play a smart game.


Gee Zinoviev, thanks.

And this whole "Novitzsky keeping Lance in the dark" is so bogus.
This is not some secret clandestine operation.
Heck, Novitzsky is already under scrutiny for his behaviors:

"Agent Jeff Novitzky, the crusader who has spent nearly a decade working to put Bonds behind bars for allegedly lying about steroids, has been found to have grossly violated the 4th Amendment, prohibiting unlawful searches and seizures, in a landmark case on the dangers of an overzealous investigator."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-littman/barry-bonds-hunter-cheate_b_717204.html

If and when Lance is Indicted, he will be told EXACTLY the charges against him. No Secrets lol.

And I doubt he will be charged with having Plastics in his Blood
 
Polish said:
Gee Zinoviev, thanks.

And this whole "Novitzsky keeping Lance in the dark" is so bogus.
This is not some secret clandestine operation.
Heck, Novitzsky is already under scrutiny for his behaviors:

"Agent Jeff Novitzky, the crusader who has spent nearly a decade working to put Bonds behind bars for allegedly lying about steroids, has been found to have grossly violated the 4th Amendment, prohibiting unlawful searches and seizures, in a landmark case on the dangers of an overzealous investigator."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-littman/barry-bonds-hunter-cheate_b_717204.html

If and when Lance is Indicted, he will be told EXACTLY the charges against him. No Secrets lol.

And I doubt he will be charged with having Plastics in his Blood

Not until they do some more retesting of samples!
 
Mar 10, 2009
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www.rolfraehansen.com
If the plasticizer test is ratified and in full use for the 2011 season then we could face one of the cleanest Tours de France since the pre-EPO days. I predict Menchov, Andy Schleck and Samuel Sanchez all struggling to find their 2010 form and riders like Loquvist (sp?), Roche and the Garmin guys being closer to the business end of the GC than ever before. I can dream anyway. :D
 
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redtreviso said:
They'll just switch to glass

Don't destroy my dreams! :D

Seriously though. Logistically, using glass bottles for storing and carrying blood will surely be more difficult? They would have to be more careful with freezing etc. Maybe those that currently top up pre-race and on the rest day will reduce to just the pre-race transfusion?
 
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rolfrae said:
Don't destroy my dreams! :D

Seriously though. Logistically, using glass bottles for storing and carrying blood will surely be more difficult? They would have to be more careful with freezing etc. Maybe those that currently top up pre-race and on the rest day will reduce to just the pre-race transfusion?

Seriously it might make things easier..New conspicuous "wine" delivery for the teams.."la chateau de juan pelota"
 
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krebs303 said:
I'd just go retro and use glass. Seems the easiest way to bypass the test
sb10067602d-001.jpg

This was my first thought too. Of course, frozen storage would be a problem no doubt but in the context of systematic doping programs by large wealthy teams, surely some method will be found to overcome this problem--if it hasn't already. That's why I think that Vaughters' enthusiasm (if genuine) is laughably naive. This is just another round in the endless cat and mouse game between the dopers and the detectors. It is so tedious and predictable that I'm surprised that it still creates a firestorm every time. Even more tedious is the inevitable discussion of human phisiology, organic chemistry, molecular biology, the pharmaceutical industry and the half life of 1 2 3 diethlyoxybutylhydrathiochlora . . . etc., etc. Forget it. It will never end, the sport will never be clean. Let them dope. If young people want to live clean then they should avoid going into cycling.
 
redtreviso said:
They'll just switch to glass

Glass can't be used, because it promotes clotting. The surface contacting the blood has to be specially designed. Someone did post a link here a few days ago to new blood bags that don't leach DEHP. One of them has been around for 8 years, apparently. In light of the possibility of testing frozen samples, interesting to speculate if different doctors aiding riders dope used different types of blood bags.

Another way of getting around the problem is to use a DEHP-containing bag, but let it sit with sterile saline in it for a few days or weeks, to leach out most of the DEHP.
 
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DEHP is everywhere

Everyone is rushing to say this is the greatest indicator since litmus paper. And I agree Alberto's numbers are suspicious if he had a DEHP spike right in the middle of the tour. But WADA or whoever have to be real careful with this. They need some real high thresholds and need to do a baseline at the beginning of any stage race. Maybe start testing the team managers or someone else who hangs out around the riders as a environmental background check, so they don't ban someone because he took a shower in a tub with a new shower curtain. When I do environmental analysis a good portion of my samples have detecable levels of this compound in them. The dang stuff is everywhere. I mean DEHP specifically not just any phthalate. We do see dibutyl phthalate quite a bit too.

Below is a paste off the NIH website. This paste is not just to show where one might get DEHP in the body, but it is what will come out of the mouth of any rider who is told his/her levels are higher than they should be.

"You can be exposed to low levels of phthalates through air, water, or food. You can be exposed to phthalates if you use cosmetics, personal care products, cleaning products, or other plastic and vinyl products that contain them.

Exposure to low levels of phthalates may come from eating food packaged in plastic that contains phthalates, or breathing dust in rooms with vinyl miniblinds, wallpaper, or recently installed flooring that contain phthalates. You could be exposed by drinking water that contains phthalates, though it is not known how common that is.

Children can be exposed to phthalates by chewing on soft vinyl toys or other products made with them. Children can be exposed by breathing household dust that contains phthalates, or using IV tubing or other medical devices made with phthalates.

[and of course here is why we are discussing this subject here]

People at the highest risk of exposure to phthalates are dialysis patients, hemophiliacs, or people who received blood transfusions from sources that use tubing or containers made with phthalates. The Food and Drug Administration has recommended steps to minimize exposure of patients to medical devices that contain phthalates, and alternative devices for certain procedures. Others at high risk are painters, printers, and workers exposed to phthalates during the manufacture, formulation, and processing of plastics.
 
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soslow said:
Everyone is rushing to say this is the greatest indicator since litmus paper. And I agree Alberto's numbers are suspicious if he had a DEHP spike right in the middle of the tour. But WADA or whoever have to be real careful with this. They need some real high thresholds and need to do a baseline at the beginning of any stage race. Maybe start testing the team managers or someone else who hangs out around the riders as a environmental background check, so they don't ban someone because he took a shower in a tub with a new shower curtain. When I do environmental analysis a good portion of my samples have detecable levels of this compound in them. The dang stuff is everywhere. I mean DEHP specifically not just any phthalate. We do see dibutyl phthalate quite a bit too.
I agree. In at least one study of food preparation their were some very high levels reported especially when fatty foods were cooked or stored in containers with DEHP in them. For example chicken cooked in a new teflon frying pan had massive levels of DEHP. I will be very hard to connect the dots on this.

Furthermore, given the known health impacts of DEHP then it is highly likely that manufacturers of medical products for infusions are working towards reducing the levels in their products. So this kind of approach is going to have a limited life span.