Plasticizer

[miteycasey]

the article states that the plasticisers were found in an urine sample-not in a blood sample!!!!get it?
i'm not looking for a biology explanation on how the body synthesizes food & drugs......

No one is disagreeing with you, but plasticizers don't just show up in urine. It has to come from somewhere, orally, injected, or transfused.

 

[scribe]

I know I'm clutching at straws, but is sabotage completely out of the question.

Well. You ARE posting in the clinic.

 

[Wallace]

This can explain the poor performance by Lance and Radioshack this year. They knew the bags could give them away now, and had to give up the refueling.

Did you not watch the race? Lance actually rode better than last year until he flatted on the Pave', and his chase was pretty impressive although ultimately unsuccessful. Similar issue on the stage he imploded on. Had he not forgotten how to ride a bike and not fallen so much, although there were a lot of crashes and falls in 2010, I think he would have done better than 2009. And I doubt even he would have had the ball(s) to dope in the 2010 Tour given the fact that so much heat was on him. I don't attribute his failure to recovery; it was more due to too little racing in his legs and the resultant rusty handling skills, etc.

Had he been highly placed and fallen away and cracked compared to the others without reason later in the race, then I might believe your little fantasy.

Oh dear god, not this debate again.

 

[GatorGene]

First off, both Clen and DEHP did show up on the rest day samples.

Second, the kidney clears different things from blood at different rates. Clen can be bound to proteins that hold it in the blood longer and the DEHP could be released in the kidney quicker.

The news story currently posted says the plasticizer was found the day BEFORE the Clenbuterol.

If the plasticizer and the Clen were co-administered, and the half-life for Clen removal is so large that none was detected the next day (the day the plasticizer was detected), then the half-life is so large that the Clen would not have been completely cleared on the third day. In other words, if Clen is cleared quickly, it should have shown with the plasticizer, and if Clen is cleared quite slowly, it would show on multiple days. Therefore, it seems quite possible (maybe even reasonable) that the plasticizer and the Clen didn't arrive in Contador's body the same day.

Maybe, maybe, maybe, if it weren't for the contaminated meat we wouldn't have discovered the previous day's administration of his own blood?

 

[Cobblestones]

If the plasticisers were only found in the urine and not in the blood, the plasticizers must have gotten in to the urine outside of the body... lets say he was delivering the sample in a plastic cup... which could have easily contained such plasticisers... As stated above too many reasons to say te plasticisers were there for a different reason

Too bad they tested for phthalate metabolites, not the phthalates themselves. Or are you arguing the plastic cup digests itself?

 

[Berzin]

The question now becomes will Contador be sanctioned for the level of plasticizers in his system, or is only a matter of the Clenbutarol positive?

We can have this debate all day but the more pressing concern is what will he get sanctioned for and what will the sanction entail?

Are the governing bodies willing to expose themselves to a potentially drawn-out legal battle over this latest issue, or will they strictly be looking at the Clen and nothing else?

 

[Merckx index]

More bad news for Bert. Here's a 2004 study of 2500 subjects in the U.S., in which levels of MEHP, a major DEHP metabolite, were measured in urine. Population included M/F, all ages, ethnic groups, etc. The values were actually somewhat lower than the controls in the other study which has been posted here, with 50th percentile values around 3-5 ng/ml. Even 95th percentile values were generally 25-30 ng/ml. Again, Bert's reported values of two metabolites are 480 and 210 ng/ml.

The highest value of MEHP in any of the 2541 subjects studied was 130 ng/ml, and this was in the youngest age group (6-11). In the pool of subjects over 20 years old (nearly 1500 subjects), the highest value recorded was a little over 40 ng/ml.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241863/pdf/ehp0112-000331.pdf

 

[kurtinsc]

The question now becomes will Contador be sanctioned for the level of plasticizers in his system, or is only a matter of the Clenbutarol positive?

We can have this debate all day but the more pressing concern is what will he get sanctioned for and what will the sanction entail?

Are the governing bodies willing to expose themselves to a potentially drawn-out legal battle over this latest issue, or will they strictly be looking at the Clen and nothing else?

My guess is that he'll be sanctioned solely on the Clenbutarol. But the presence of plasticizers will mean he will not get any reduction based on appeal, and the "bad meat" excuse won't help.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

Ya, I was just thinking plasticizers would be in everything including IV bags of saline solution. How could a test result tell if the plasticizer came from an IV or somewhere else? Not happnin'

 

[hfer07]

No one is disagreeing with you, but plasticizers don't just show up in urine. It has to come from somewhere, orally, injected, or transfused.

what's wrong with you people!!! my statement is regarding some folks here saying the plasticisers were found in his blood samples- I'm simply referring to the L'equippe/NYT articles that cleary state the findings come from his urine samples, not from any blood samples at all!!!!
I have enough common sense to know that anything you ever consume/ingest/inject/inhale, etc is going to show up first in your blood stream before is synthesized by the body into urine.......

savvies

 

[Chuffy]

More bad news for Bert. Here's a 2004 study of 2500 subjects in the U.S., in which levels of MEHP, a major DEHP metabolite, were measured in urine. Population included M/F, all ages, ethnic groups, etc. The values were actually somewhat lower than the controls in the other study which has been posted here, with 50th percentile values around 3-5 ng/ml. Even 95th percentile values were generally 25-30 ng/ml. Again, Bert's reported values of two metabolites are 480 and 210 ng/ml.

The highest value of MEHP in any of the 2541 subjects studied was 130 ng/ml, and this was in the youngest age group (6-11). In the pool of subjects over 20 years old (nearly 1500 subjects), the highest value recorded was a little over 40 ng/ml.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241863/pdf/ehp0112-000331.pdf

Interesting, I was wondering if there was another study around.

However, it does raise the question of why/how Bertie's levels were massively higher than anyone in the study. Surely MEHP isn't a PED!

 

[dolophonic]

So no one else has returned a test result with these plastizer's from this years Tour? It seems unlikely that Bertie was the only one transfusing.. doesn't it?

What about the Elite bottles that are bio degradable ? Couldn't that be used as an excuse?

There are a lot of people piling on here .. it is to be expected.

 

[131313]

Ya, I was just thinking plasticizers would be in everything including IV bags of saline solution. How could a test result tell if the plasticizer came from an IV or somewhere else? Not happnin'

This is a totally specious argument. After all, you have red blood cells, but you only get sanctioned if you have too many of them...

The levels are different, and the rate at which it leaves your body differs depending on how it enters the body.

It would be akin to someone suddenly having a HCT of 65 one day and 43 the next. Sure, there's no binary test result to say that you're absolutely 100% boosting, but you're certainly going to be on a long vacation should you demonstrate these values.

I don't see anything different in this case, should the levels be what they're claimed to be.

I understand that it's easier to just sanction him for the Clenbuterol positive, but what does that really solve? Don't eat or drink something contaminated before you store your blood and you'll be fine??? Turn the tour victory over to someone with similar levels of DEHP or other plasticizers (should that be the case)?

 

[TdFLanterne]

Backstory

The other interesting aspect of this is that it shows that WADA tracks a number of things it doesn't talk about in public - yet. So it may have a fairly extensive list of athletes who they know are doping in some form, but aren't able to pin down precisely yet.

It also shows they are probably getting positives all the time that they aren't prosecuting. I can't believe Alberto is the first rider that they ever caught with plasticizer residue in his urine. IVs have been banned all year, but I haven't heard of any prosecutions for it. It also means they're tracking just about everybody who uses IVs and blood doping, but just don't have rigorous enough proof to nail their cheating asses yet.

 

[Polish]

So no one else has returned a test result with these plastizer's from this years Tour? It seems unlikely that Bertie was the only one transfusing.. doesn't it?

What about the Elite bottles that are bio degradable ? Couldn't that be used as an excuse?

There are a lot of people piling on here .. it is to be expected.

While it seems unlikely that Bertie was the only one transfusing, it seems very likely that Bertie was being targeted.

The UCI and AFLD and WADA target certain riders. Part of the reason WADA let the AFLD get involved with the TdF testing at the last minute is that they (the AFLD) were supposed to "help" the UCI target certain riders. If I remeber correctly, the AFLD was to "escort" the UCI as they tested the targeted riders. No advance warning blah blah blah.

It would not suprise me if Radioshack and Astana were targets lol.

 

[neineinei]

This can explain the poor performance by Lance and Radioshack this year. They knew the bags could give them away now, and had to give up the refueling.

Did you not watch the race? Lance actually rode better than last year until he flatted on the Pave', and his chase was pretty impressive although ultimately unsuccessful. Similar issue on the stage he imploded on. Had he not forgotten how to ride a bike and not fallen so much, although there were a lot of crashes and falls in 2010, I think he would have done better than 2009. And I doubt even he would have had the ball(s) to dope in the 2010 Tour given the fact that so much heat was on him. I don't attribute his failure to recovery; it was more due to too little racing in his legs and the resultant rusty handling skills, etc.

Had he been highly placed and fallen away and cracked compared to the others without reason later in the race, then I might believe your little fantasy.

You failed to see the Big Grin smiley at the end of my fantasy. What I am really grinning big about now is thinking about the restless nights the common GT contender is having after this news of the new WADA test came from Cologne.

 

[avanti]

I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

Blood-test shringes also are available with either glass or plastic bodies - so perhaps a plastic shringe is the source of the plasticizer.

 

[Willy_Voet]

Blood-test shringes also are available with either glass or plastic bodies - so perhaps a plastic shringe is the source of the plasticizer.

Mindless speculation or grasping at straws?

Say! Maybe that's it! A great champion saves energy on rest days by not lifting his drink glass. Bertie must be using plastic straws that are leaching plasticizers.

 

[tubularglue]

The other interesting aspect of this is that it shows that WADA tracks a number of things it doesn't talk about in public - yet. So it may have a fairly extensive list of athletes who they know are doping in some form, but aren't able to pin down precisely yet.

It also shows they are probably getting positives all the time that they aren't prosecuting. I can't believe Alberto is the first rider that they ever caught with plasticizer residue in his urine. IVs have been banned all year, but I haven't heard of any prosecutions for it. It also means they're tracking just about everybody who uses IVs and blood doping, but just don't have rigorous enough proof to nail their cheating asses yet.

little by slowly

January February, i predict will have a flurry of public positives.

Got to give time for the lawyers to catch up. Get your ducks in a row'

 

[rata de sentina]

Interesting, I was wondering if there was another study around.

However, it does raise the question of why/how Bertie's levels were massively higher than anyone in the study. Surely MEHP isn't a PED!

There's heaps of studies. As a general rule the European studies have higher levels than the US studies. At the moment it is not clear what the 480ng/ml figure is for, could be for MEHPP or one of the other metabolites or could be combined all metabolites.

 

[rata de sentina]

Mindless speculation or grasping at straws?

Say! Maybe that's it! A great champion saves energy on rest days by not lifting his drink glass. Bertie must be using plastic straws that are leaching plasticizers.

Well you can be glib but when you look at the possible sources of this stuff then it will be very difficult to pin it down to transfusion equipment alone. I agree it is concerning especially if AC wants to avoid shrunken gonads but it is no where near enough.

 

[HoustonHammer]

I know I'm clutching at straws, but is sabotage completely out of the question.

Here, put this hat on and go sit in the corner. We'll tell you when you can come out.

 

[BigFatSal]

Well I'm out of my corner and venturing another theory. Saline drip the night before rest day hence the plasticisers, clenbuterol from meat. Is this one possible.

Personally I prefer sabotage theory..it's more exciting

 

[Race Radio]

Well I'm out of my corner and venturing another theory. Saline drip the night before rest day hence the plasticisers, clenbuterol from meat. Is this one possible.

Personally I prefer sabotage theory..it's more exciting

Saline drips are illegal without a TUE

 

[JPM London]

This is a totally specious argument. After all, you have red blood cells, but you only get sanctioned if you have too many of them...

The levels are different, and the rate at which it leaves your body differs depending on how it enters the body.

It would be akin to someone suddenly having a HCT of 65 one day and 43 the next. Sure, there's no binary test result to say that you're absolutely 100% boosting, but you're certainly going to be on a long vacation should you demonstrate these values.

I don't see anything different in this case, should the levels be what they're claimed to be.

I understand that it's easier to just sanction him for the Clenbuterol positive, but what does that really solve? Don't eat or drink something contaminated before you store your blood and you'll be fine??? Turn the tour victory over to someone with similar levels of DEHP or other plasticizers (should that be the case)?

Maybe we should have a "health concern" limit on plastic like the good old 50% hct? "Sorry, you have inhaled too many plastic bottles to ride today - mind you, we're not saying you're doping!".