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Plasticizer

Jul 2, 2009
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was every rider tested for this at this years tour ?

curious

if so, the next couple of months will be revealing, no ?

-interesting if they backdated the plasticizer test to last years tour. :D
 

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Aug 17, 2009
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tubularglue said:
was every rider tested for this at this years tour ?

curious

if so, the next couple of months will be revealing, no ?

-interesting if they backdated the plasticizer test to last years tour. :D
My guess is the test is a new thing. Most of the riders heard it was coming, Alberto did not. So sorry Alberto.
 
Mar 16, 2010
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I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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soslow said:
I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible.

What are the typical baseline levels in the population, and what are the absorption rates through the various methods of transport?

I get really suspicious any time a scientist uses the word "impossible". I was under the impression from the limited reading I've done on the subject that phthalates ingested and/or inhaled would be present in much lower levels, and also be metabolized more quickly when in the body than those directly entering the bloodstream. I know there's been a significant amount of research on the subject, but I've read very little of it.

I have a difficult time believing that the test is a total dead end, since it's been widely reported for over a year that a test for autologous blood doping would be centered around phthalate accumulation levels.
 
May 24, 2010
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soslow said:
I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

I think we are talking about plasticizers found in blood, which removes some of those concerns. Still, there's sure a lot of potential problems with such a test, and I hope noone wants to use it other than as motivation to look into bio passports etc.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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soslow said:
I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

EXACTLY! Thats why nobody in the 2010 TDF autologous blood doped.... Clean tour apart from a little clen here and there, eh he he he.
 
May 19, 2010
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This can explain the poor performance by Lance and Radioshack this year. They knew the bags could give them away now, and had to give up the refueling.

Livestrong is soon letting the world know that they have launched a big and very expencive research to find new materials for blood transfusion equipement, pflatelates are causing cancer! The scientists who will solve the problem is looking to get the Nobel prize in medicine and chemistry, and they will dedicate their prizes to Lance Armstrong. The Norwegian Nobel Comitee will be so mesmerized by the fuzz that they will award Armstrong the Nobel Peace Prize. :D
 
Aug 31, 2009
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soslow said:
I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

I think if these values increase significantly during one day (expecially on a rest day) and suddenly other substances pop up one should be sceptical.
 
Jan 19, 2010
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soslow said:
I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

Your post leaves me a few questions. Do all plastics contain the exact same plasticizer they are quantifying in this test, or is it a plasticizer that is specifically added to make the PVC bags flexible?

Would plasticizers that come from environmental exposure, like water bottles, urine collection cups (that are typically a DEHP free polypropylene), plastic wrap for food get into the blood and spike in concentration one day and then decay to below threshold limits naturally or would that result in a chronic exposure that would be associated with a stable to slightly periodic level that would be free of big peaks and troughs?

My guess is that the doping experts sought out a specific plasticizer in DEHP that is used in the industry to make PVC flexible and is known to be a leachable by blood in lab tests (DEHP blood bag leaching) rather than selecting a random phthalate that is ubiquitous in food plastics and something that cyclists use with high frequency (like water bottles). Otherwise, they shouldn't be considered experts if they were not smart enough to look for something that has a limited chance of exposure to the cyclists other than ilicit exposure from transfusions.
 
Jan 19, 2010
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neineinei said:
This can explain the poor performance by Lance and Radioshack this year. They knew the bags could give them away now, and had to give up the refueling.

Livestrong is soon letting the world know that they have launched a big and very expencive research to find new materials for blood transfusion equipement, pflatelates are causing cancer! The scientists who will solve the problem is looking to get the Nobel prize in medicine and chemistry, and they will dedicate their prizes to Lance Armstrong. The Norwegian Nobel Comitee will be so mesmerized by the fuzz that they will award Armstrong the Nobel Peace Prize. :D

Blood bags that do not leachout DEHP are already known (see http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10731199109117853?journalCode=abb)
 
Jul 2, 2009
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can someone explain this then:

urine sample taken by the UCI on July 20th revealed levels of plasticizers eight times higher than the minimum amount thought to point towards doping.

:D
 
Sep 23, 2010
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soslow said:
I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

It is My understanding that Plasticizer's, or more commonly known as phthalates are additives that are added to hard Plastic's during the manufacturing process to give the material durability and flexibility. There are several different types of Plasticizer's. Such as
Diisodecyl Phtalates, Butly Benzyl Phthalates and Di-n-hexyl Phthalate, to name just a few.

Different types of plasticizer's are used for different types of plastics, depending on which type of plastic, for it's use in the commercial and industrial industries.

One of the most common type of Plasticizer's used is called, Bis ( 2-ethylhexyl )phthalate or ( DEHP ) . It is uesd in the manufacture of medical devices such as dialysis bags, catheters, intravenous tubing and Iv bags. It is also used in Childern's Toys, construction material's and food packaging. It can be absorbed from food and water that has come into contact with the Plastic.

I have a few question's. Is there different testing method's that can isolate and identify different type's of Phthalates in a Blood or a urine sample.

If the above mentioned phthalate Bis ( 2-ethylhexly ) is detected in a sample of Blood or Urine, what are the expected level's one would find if this phthalate came from food and water that had been ingested. Compared to the reported levels found in the case of Alberto Contador.

If an Iv Blood bag was frozen at the appropriate temperature for X amount of time say. What would be the expected level of Bis ( 2-ethylhexly ) phthalate one would expect to find after a blood tranfusion in a human subject, and of course after a blood or urine sample had been taken for the testing of this particular mentioned Plasticizer. And compare those levels to the levels reportedly found in the case of Alberto Contador.
 
Apr 11, 2009
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neineinei said:
The scientists who will solve the problem is looking to get the Nobel prize in medicine and chemistry, and they will dedicate their prizes to Lance Armstrong. The Norwegian Nobel Comitee will be so mesmerized by the fuzz that they will award Armstrong the Nobel Peace Prize. :D

Ha, ha! :D

I was thinking more the Congressional Medal of Honour (for "services in the pursuit of wattage").

But if not, Bono will perform at the Nobel ceremony.
 
Oct 29, 2009
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Polyarmour said:
Why would you perform retrospective tests for a non banned substance?

Because you could then determine whether Lance Armstrong used banned methods, like autologus blood doping. Plasticizers in your system indicate this.
 
Mar 16, 2009
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I'd just go retro and use glass. Seems the easiest way to bypass the test
sb10067602d-001.jpg
 
Jul 2, 2009
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my prediction

they won't come out with any indicative positives for this test in the next couple of months (4 to 6), so the new round of pro tour sponsors will come on board.

old news is good news
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Oct 3, 2010
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Plastic types?

Same for all riders: Plastic cups used for urine collection, bidons. Therefore traces of those types would not be a differential test indicative of an individual doping, of course.

My question (that I don't know the answer to) is whether the bags used to store blood and standard IV saline bags are made out of different plastic types and can therefore be distinguished by different plastic residues?
 
The Bald Eagle said:
I have a few question's. Is there different testing method's that can isolate and identify different type's of Phthalates in a Blood or a urine sample.
The method is the same, but of course this method can detect different substances - which in this case would be MEHP, MEPP and god knows what ( I think python posted a link to springer an that one).
 
Mar 11, 2009
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TdFLanterne said:
My question (that I don't know the answer to) is whether the bags used to store blood and standard IV saline bags are made out of different plastic types and can therefore be distinguished by different plastic residues?

In American football, it's not uncommon to re-hydrate a player during halftime using IV fluids (presumably normal saline). Do TdF riders re-hydrate with IV fluids overnight? If Contador re-hydrated on one night, and ate contaminated beef on the next night, wouldn't the tests show DEHP on one day and Clen on the next day? If Contador IV'd his own contaminated blood, wouldn't the DEHP and the Clen show up on the same day's tests?
What does the difference in days for the two different 'positives' tell us?
 
Apr 28, 2009
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Funny, I was just talking to a co-worker about this and he asked if they hydrate with an IV. I assume they do on occasion so now I'm wondering if this will be Contador's next excuse.