Plasticizer

[Squares]

I have a few question's. Is there different testing method's that can isolate and identify different type's of Phthalates in a Blood or a urine sample. .

Yes, the Mass spectrometry detection methods are very specific. They detect the compound by physical separation from other materials, using gas or liquid chromatography first, and then detect the molecular weight of the compound, so they are very specific for a given compound (so selective that they could detect the difference between natural testosterone and synthetic testosterone in FLandis' case).

If the above mentioned phthalate Bis ( 2-ethylhexly ) is detected in a sample of Blood or Urine, what are the expected level's one would find if this phthalate came from food and water that had been ingested. Compared to the reported levels found in the case of Alberto Contador.

If an Iv Blood bag was frozen at the appropriate temperature for X amount of time say. What would be the expected level of Bis ( 2-ethylhexly ) phthalate one would expect to find after a blood tranfusion in a human subject, and of course after a blood or urine sample had been taken for the testing of this particular mentioned Plasticizer. And compare those levels to the levels reportedly found in the case of Alberto Contador.

The link I posted above http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.3109/10731199109117853?journalCode=abb actually quantifies the amount of DEHP that leaches from different brands of bags from different manufacturers.

It states:

There was an increase in the amount of DEHP leached from about 1.1 mg at the end of one day to about 3.3 mg per gm of bag material at the end of a five day extraction with the serum

So, when you have a sample that was stored for months, a 500 mL unit of stored blood, with a bag that was ~20 g could leach out 60-70 mg of DEHP, which is quite easy to detect with modern mass spectrometry instruments that can detect 1/1,000,000 of a mg of DEHP.

Other scientific articles point out that the DEHP is processed in the body to MEHP and then into forms that have sugars attached. All of these breakdown products are detectable in urine.

And coincidentally, the majority of water bottles and urine collection cups are made from polypropylene that is naturally more flexible that PVC so they do not have DEHP added to them.

The final nail is that there was a spike in AC's plasticizer levels that decayed and was not detectable above the threshold levels on the day of the Tourmalet stage or after that stage.

 

[Der_Gestreifte]

My question (that I don't know the answer to) is whether the bags used to store blood and standard IV saline bags are made out of different plastic types and can therefore be distinguished by different plastic residues?

They are made of the same plastics a lot of goods for daily use are made of.
The weird thing about this is that (at least for the EU) the allowed amount of plasticisers for IV stuff is much higher than the one for your China-made rubber duck.

 

[crispy]

no, IVs are banned - obviously if they weren't the test would be meaningless...

I should've read the NY Times article first - I didn't realize that fact but just read it there.

 

[BigFatSal]

I know I'm clutching at straws, but is sabotage completely out of the question.

 

[TdFLanterne]

WADA does ban IV use:
http://adisonline.com/sportsmedicin...us_versus_Oral_Rehydration_in_Athletes.4.aspx

though I've never heard of an athlete suspended for it yet.

I'd think the sanctions for evidence of blood doping would and should be considerably harsher than for rehydration via IV.

Just wondering if the plasticizer residue can distinguish between the two.

 

[Squares]

If Contador re-hydrated on one night, and ate contaminated beef on the next night, wouldn't the tests show DEHP on one day and Clen on the next day? If Contador IV'd his own contaminated blood, wouldn't the DEHP and the Clen show up on the same day's tests?
What does the difference in days for the two different 'positives' tell us?

As mentioned above, IV rehydration is banned.

As to the timing of things. If you get a transfusion today, what shows up in your urine today, tomorrow, and the next day all depend on how your body processes the different compounds.

All compounds that show up in urine go through a process in the body to get there. Thik about it this way. If the clenbuterol was stuck inside a red blood cell and the plasticizer was just floating in the water of your blood, it would be much easier to see the plasticizer in urine because it could get directly taken out with the water in the kidney and end up rapidly in the kidney. For the clebuterol stuck inside the cells, suddenly, there would be less clen in the body and it would start coming out of the cells and then get extracted into urine by the kidneys. Because of the different rates of clearance, you would see them on different days.

 

[twothirds]

As mentioned above, IV rehydration is banned.

As to the timing of things. If you get a transfusion today, what shows up in your urine today, tomorrow, and the next day all depend on how your body processes the different compounds.

All compounds that show up in urine go through a process in the body to get there. Thik about it this way. If the clenbuterol was stuck inside a red blood cell and the plasticizer was just floating in the water of your blood, it would be much easier to see the plasticizer in urine because it could get directly taken out with the water in the kidney and end up rapidly in the kidney. For the clebuterol stuck inside the cells, suddenly, there would be less clen in the body and it would start coming out of the cells and then get extracted into urine by the kidneys. Because of the different rates of clearance, you would see them on different days.

The problem with your example is that clen does not make it's way into red blood cells. Clenbuterol, and ALL other drugs and hormones make their way into the blood plasma. Drugs, hormones and plasticizers will all get carried along in the blood in the same manner. The only cells that have the ability to actively store substances are fat cells, and that is only if the substance in question is fat soluble.

 

[sometriguy]

Is it fairly safe to assume that all of the riders showed similar numbers, but since they didn't return a "positive" for another substance, their readings are being disregarded?

Well, maybe not all, but at least the ones who blood doped, which I have to assume is 50 or more of the riders

 

[MarkvW]

well, yeah, but

I'm an analytical chemist. The type of testing I do detects plasticizers, namely phthalates. Let me tell you they are everywhere. Trying to link them to doping would be impossible. If the urine is collected in a plastic cup the chances of the plasticizer coming from the cup and not the cyclist are very good. If the cyclists drank water from a plastic bottle during the race (do they ever do that?) chances are the plasticizer came from that. If the analytical preparation uses any plasticware chances are the plasticizers came from that. If you think Landis's whiskey defense or Contador's meat defense are bad just wait until someone is accused of doping based on plasticizers in urine. There are so many defense choices the mind boggles.

If the plasticizer were absent on day one, present on day two, and absent on day three, wouldn't that say something?

 

[mercycle]

Ha, ha!

I was thinking more the Congressional Medal of Honour (for "services in the pursuit of wattage").

But if not, Bono will perform at the Nobel ceremony.

If you are talking about the US Congressional Medal of Honor, then this is highly inappropriate. As a civilian, Lance would never receive one.

I understand the gist of what you are trying to say, but pick a different award.

 

[Squares]

The problem with your example is that clen does not make it's way into red blood cells. Clenbuterol, and ALL other drugs and hormones make their way into the blood plasma. Drugs, hormones and plasticizers will all get carried along in the blood in the same manner. The only cells that have the ability to actively store substances are fat cells, and that is only if the substance in question is fat soluble.

Are you suggesting that the only place a drug can act is in the plasma or on fat cells?

Then how does any drug ever get into the brain, which has a tight junction called the blood brain barrier?

Hormones like estrogen and testosterone cross into cells and act on hormone receptors that act as transcription factors in the nucleus of cells.

Drugs do in fact cross into all kinds of cells, and affect the physiology of the cell. Clenbuterol an't have an anabolic effect on the muscle if it never exits the plasma.

Also, I didn't say that the red cells were "storing" the drug. I said that if it were found IN the red cells, it would then leak out by diffusion given that following transfusion, there would be a concentration gradient with clen levels lower outside the cells than inside.

In fact, my scenario doesn't even have to have the clen inside a cell. Clen could be bound tightly to plasma proteins and DEHP could be unbound by plasma proteins. The plasma binding would change the rates of clearance.

 

[hfer07]

I've read some of the posts here and people aren't reading well:
IT WAS IN THE URINE-NOT IN THE BLOOD
Apart from the technical advise offered by some fellows here, the positive side I can see out of this mess is the potential benefits of finding plasticisers as a method of catching dopers-in this case Blood dopers-
but the real question is how UCI & WADA are going to enforce it? If this new regulation/method applies to Contador, what about the rest of the peloton? how are they going to determine his case exemplifies the typical Blood doping case scenario,when an official test for blood doping has not yet been implemented? what are the limitations for plasticisers in an athlete? there are too many variables to play with, but if AC is the man to be put down in order to finally clean cycling- so be it & I'm for it-even if I like the guy, I believe the sport is most important than a single athlete....

 

[GatorGene]

So, if the plasticizer and the Clenbuterol are both carried in blood's plasma component, how is having different 'positives' on different days explained? Do the kidneys remove them into the urine at vastly different rates? If the Clen clearance rate is so slow, why wouldn't it also show on the day after the Clen 'positive'?

How, reasonably, cheating or not, does plasticizer show on one day without Clen, and Clen show on the next day without plasticizer?

 

[Zweistein]

If the plasticizer were absent on day one, present on day two, and absent on day three, wouldn't that say something?

If you want it to mean something.

I doubt that any of the GC riders are clean but you can't go around nailing people on questionable conclusions.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

IVs might be forbidden but it's well-known their use is very common. When the WADA "vampires" show up at a team's hotel, the first riders they send down for testing are the ones whose hematocrit is known to be the lowest. That keeps the testers occupied while the riders whose hematocrit is dangerously close to (or over) the limit gets a dose of 0.9 normal saline solution (which increases blood volume and reduces hematocrit concentration).

 

[Squares]

So, if the plasticizer and the Clenbuterol are both carried in blood's plasma component, how is having different 'positives' on different days explained? Do the kidneys remove them into the urine at vastly different rates? If the Clen clearance rate is so slow, why wouldn't it also show on the day after the Clen 'positive'?

How, reasonably, cheating or not, does plasticizer show on one day without Clen, and Clen show on the next day without plasticizer?

First off, both Clen and DEHP did show up on the rest day samples.

Second, the kidney clears different things from blood at different rates. Clen can be bound to proteins that hold it in the blood longer and the DEHP could be released in the kidney quicker.

I have an experiment for you. Go to a store and write 2 checks, one on a US bank and one on a bank in Europe. Then look at the online account data for each bank. Do you think they will take the money out of your account and clear the checks at the same day or will the different banks be different based on the processes that have to be done with each check to get the money?

The same can be said of your body. Smoke pot and crack cocaine at the same time. Then start peeing in a cup and I bet one shows up sooner than the other, and one will be detectible longer.

 

[Squares]

I've read some of the posts here and people aren't reading well:
IT WAS IN THE URINE-NOT IN THE BLOOD

It doesn't get into the Urine UNLESS it was in the blood! (or was introduced by putting a catheter up the urethra and injecting it into the bladder)

 

[warmfuzzies]

Plastic in the urine makes Contador's case more difficult

Contador's clen-pos A&B samples are enough to suspend for 2-years under the cycling rules. Examining all the scientific data, the plastic-pos is incremental doping evidence. While a normalized plastic level has not yet been set in the cycling rules, contador's elevated levels within a day of the clen-pos should reduce his chances of a reduced suspension and/or TdF title retention.

 

[hfer07]

it doesn't get into the urine unless it was in the blood! (or was introduced by putting a catheter up the urethra and injecting it into the bladder)

the article states that the plasticisers were found in an urine sample-not in a blood sample!!!!get it?
i'm not looking for a biology explaination on how the body synthesizes food & drugs......

 

[redbox]

Can I ask about Saline solution?

So.. are you not allowed saline solution as a racing cyclist? I thought this is what they gave the guys when they are dehydrated? Put them on a saline drip? Or is this not allowed. And wouldn’t this “plastersise” you?
Different sport, but at the end of an iron man you see people all over the place on saline drips. So they must all be on triathlon news.com... no?
If you blood dope they can tell by the platelets I think?
So does anyone out there work on a pro team that can tell us?

 

[jae2460]

This can explain the poor performance by Lance and Radioshack this year. They knew the bags could give them away now, and had to give up the refueling.

Did you not watch the race? Lance actually rode better than last year until he flatted on the Pave', and his chase was pretty impressive although ultimately unsuccessful. Similar issue on the stage he imploded on. Had he not forgotten how to ride a bike and not fallen so much, although there were a lot of crashes and falls in 2010, I think he would have done better than 2009. And I doubt even he would have had the ball(s) to dope in the 2010 Tour given the fact that so much heat was on him. I don't attribute his failure to recovery; it was more due to too little racing in his legs and the resultant rusty handling skills, etc.

Had he been highly placed and fallen away and cracked compared to the others without reason later in the race, then I might believe your little fantasy.

 

[TdFLanterne]

WADA prohibited list, effective January 2010:

"Intravenous infusions are prohibited except for those legitimately received in
the course of hospital admissions or clinical investigations."

Ironman is not an Olympic/WADA sport. (Don't get me started on pro major league US sports, either...).

 

[jae2460]

Smoke pot and crack cocaine at the same time. Then start peeing in a cup and I bet one shows up sooner than the other, and one will be detectible longer.

That sounds like a great experiment for high school kids to try...

 

[the student]

If the plasticisers were only found in the urine and not in the blood, the plasticizers must have gotten in to the urine outside of the body... lets say he was delivering the sample in a plastic cup... which could have easily contained such plasticisers... As stated above too many reasons to say te plasticisers were there for a different reason

 

[TdFLanterne]

Bzzzt, Student, every sample collected would have gone into the same type of plastic cup. And all the riders would have been drinking from similar bidons.