Plasticizer

[BigFatSal]

Saline drips are illegal without a TUE

As I understand it the plasticisers were found in a sample given before the clen was found making it the day before the rest day. Blood transfusing then makes no sense, but saline would. I wonder too if you would muck around with blood volume and thickness if you had had a stroke. Seems a bit risky to me, but who knows.

I take your point re. drips that they are as illegal as blood transfusing, so am not sure really what I am trying to say, other than maybe saline doesn't seem quite as bad to me as blood, but that what matters to me is neither here nor there as they are both wrong.

I'm just upset..sorry.

 

[alanshearer]

Plasticizer would make a good superhero name. Perhaps an even better porn name.

 

[hiero2]

Well I'm out of my corner and venturing another theory. Saline drip the night before rest day hence the plasticisers, clenbuterol from meat. Is this one possible.

Personally I prefer sabotage theory..it's more exciting

Yep, both of your theories are POSSIBLE. Most people here don't seem to agree that they are LIKELY, but I think most people here are trying too hard to play Sherlock Holmes. It's all good, though, it'll all come to a head soon enough.

Oddly, I could see AC doing the IV rehydration - wouldn't be "detectable", but might help. I also have yet to dismiss the clenbuterol from meat theory. If one googles clenbuterol poisoning, it's easy enough to see that this is not uncommon, and seems to have occurred with frequency in Spain.

The thing for me is the KISS method. For instance, Mosquera's recent HES detection. The simple answer is that he is guilty - HES is apparently ONLY administered via IV, and has no normal contact vector (couldn't be contaminated health supplement). Add to that the purpose is to cover EPO use, and the answer looks pretty simple.

But, for AC, the simple answer is quite possibly that the clenbuterol WAS used in the beef. Apparently it is a not uncommon practice, and the Spaniards are fond of good beef. At this point, the blood contamination theory appears to me to be the more complicated answer to the question. I also think a lot of the reasoning people have used here to argue in favor of the blood bag theory is weak. Imho.

The OP, while he may, or may not, be a good source, does make a persuasive case for MANY common sources for plasticizers in the urine. A lot of ppl in this thread are dissing that, but again, I think those arguments are weak at best, and contorted at worst. Not that they might not be right, when we eventually feel we have arrived at some "truth" we might know more. Or not.

 

[Race Radio]

As I understand it the plasticisers were found in a sample given before the clen was found making it the day before the rest day. Blood transfusing then makes no sense, but saline would. I wonder too if you would muck around with blood volume and thickness if you had had a stroke. Seems a bit risky to me, but who knows.

I take your point re. drips that they are as illegal as blood transfusing, so am not sure really what I am trying to say, other than maybe saline doesn't seem quite as bad to me as blood, but that what matters to me is neither here nor there as they are both wrong.

I'm just upset..sorry.

It is common practice to transfuse the day prior to the rest day to give maximum time for the body to adjust to the new levels

 

[Race Radio]

It would be akin to someone suddenly having a HCT of 65 one day and 43 the next. Sure, there's no binary test result to say that you're absolutely 100% boosting, but you're certainly going to be on a long vacation should you demonstrate these values.

In Contador's case it would be more like his Hct being 43 one day and 430 the next

 

[nicholaaaas]

What are the typical baseline levels in the population, and what are the absorption rates through the various methods of transport?

I get really suspicious any time a scientist uses the word "impossible". I was under the impression from the limited reading I've done on the subject that phthalates ingested and/or inhaled would be present in much lower levels, and also be metabolized more quickly when in the body than those directly entering the bloodstream. I know there's been a significant amount of research on the subject, but I've read very little of it.

I have a difficult time believing that the test is a total dead end, since it's been widely reported for over a year that a test for autologous blood doping would be centered around phthalate accumulation levels.

that makes no sense at all... commoun sense would say the opposite. you know cause it has to go through the extra steps to get to the blood. but that doesn't fit peoples theories

 

[nicholaaaas]

Your post leaves me a few questions. Do all plastics contain the exact same plasticizer they are quantifying in this test, or is it a plasticizer that is specifically added to make the PVC bags flexible?

Would plasticizers that come from environmental exposure, like water bottles, urine collection cups (that are typically a DEHP free polypropylene), plastic wrap for food get into the blood and spike in concentration one day and then decay to below threshold limits naturally or would that result in a chronic exposure that would be associated with a stable to slightly periodic level that would be free of big peaks and troughs?

My guess is that the doping experts sought out a specific plasticizer in DEHP that is used in the industry to make PVC flexible and is known to be a leachable by blood in lab tests (DEHP blood bag leaching) rather than selecting a random phthalate that is ubiquitous in food plastics and something that cyclists use with high frequency (like water bottles). Otherwise, they shouldn't be considered experts if they were not smart enough to look for something that has a limited chance of exposure to the cyclists other than ilicit exposure from transfusions.

"DEHP hydrolyzes to MEHP (mono-ethylhexyl phthalate) and subsequently to phthalate salts. The released alcohol is susceptible to oxidation to the aldehyde and carboxylic acid"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis(2-ethylhexyl)_phthalate

"Diisodecyl phthalate (DIDP) is a commonly used plasticizer used in the production of plastic and plastic coating to increase flexibility.

The coating on furnishings, cookware, pharmaceutical pills, food wrappers and many other products may have DIDP and other phthalates in them. There has been recent concern in the USA and European Union for their toxicity and bioaccumulative quality"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diisodecyl_phthalate

so wouldn't other phtalate pvc metabolise into the same salts? and the fact that AC's levels were much higher than people in the hospital for quite some time. Something isn't right

 

[_Zipp0_]

The developer of the test has weighed in, and says that Contador's levels leave no doubt that he took on some bonus blood.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/seg...sticizer-levels-are-indicative-of-transfusion

 

[nicholaaaas]

In American football, it's not uncommon to re-hydrate a player during halftime using IV fluids (presumably normal saline). Do TdF riders re-hydrate with IV fluids overnight? If Contador re-hydrated on one night, and ate contaminated beef on the next night, wouldn't the tests show DEHP on one day and Clen on the next day? If Contador IV'd his own contaminated blood, wouldn't the DEHP and the Clen show up on the same day's tests?
What does the difference in days for the two different 'positives' tell us?

WADA doesn't allow IV... but there are situations where they are allowed ie. if a rider is vomiting and can not take fluids in an IV would be legal

 

[dbrower]

In the wrong thread, Polish said:

Hydration IVs using plastics bags were legal at the Tour de France up to and including 2005.

Riders from that era should have plenty of legal plastics in their veins.
Riders from the 80's and 90's too. Not a PED. FDA Approved.
Reply With Quote

We don't know that saline picks up the plastic the same way that red blood cells and plasma do, so that conclusion is speculative at the moment.

I don't know that any blood-dopers of 2000-2005 should be sleeping easier because of that assumption.

-dB

 

[Willy_Voet]

The developer of the test has weighed in, and says that Contador's levels leave no doubt that he took on some bonus blood.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/seg...sticizer-levels-are-indicative-of-transfusion

****ing traitor. Someone should teach him how to say "Omerta" in Spanish.

Anyway, it is reported that AC will hold a press conference today to announce that he has mysophobia. He never uses cutlery that has been used by someone else, so carries his own supply of plastic cutlery. After toting it around in the team car on those hot transition stages, it's no surprise the forks began breaking down leading to the high plasticizer values in his ****.

 

[indurain666]

The developer of the test has weighed in, and says that Contador's levels leave no doubt that he took on some bonus blood.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/seg...sticizer-levels-are-indicative-of-transfusion

What is pretty ironic is that the test was developed by a Spanish scientist, Dr. Segura from Barcelona. And yet you still have all these morons such as P. McQuaid criticizing Spanish officials and I guess Operacion Puerto was done by the FBI

 

[Willy_Voet]

In the wrong thread, Polish said:

Hydration IVs using plastics bags were legal at the Tour de France up to and including 2005.

Riders from that era should have plenty of legal plastics in their veins.
Riders from the 80's and 90's too. Not a PED. FDA Approved.
Reply With Quote

We don't know that saline picks up the plastic the same way that red blood cells and plasma do, so that conclusion is speculative at the moment.

I don't know that any blood-dopers of 2000-2005 should be sleeping easier because of that assumption.

-dB

Good point. Blood is much more amenable to dissolving lipophilic compounds compared to saline. Serum albumin would probably love the plasticizer and facilitate uptake into solution.

 

[Merckx index]

We don't know that saline picks up the plastic the same way that red blood cells and plasma do, so that conclusion is speculative at the moment.

I don't know that any blood-dopers of 2000-2005 should be sleeping easier because of that assumption.

-dB

This questions was partially addressed in the Segura study:

hospitalized patients exposed to different medical treatments involving plastic materials (catheters, infusion sets, tubes, parenteral nutrition, etc.) but not subjected to blood transfusions

This group had values that for the most part were close to those of controls. But a few had very high values, comparable to those of many transfused patients. This could complicate test interpretation, because a test has to have a very low false positive rate. If even only a few % of subjects who were exposed to plastics by, say, saline transfusion have high DEHP metabolite values, it will be difficult to set a criterion low enough to catch a substantial number of real blood transfusers.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Good point. Blood is much more amenable to dissolving lipophilic compounds compared to saline. Serum albumin would probably love the plasticizer and facilitate uptake into solution.

Even if it is used only as corroborating evidence, not a stand-alone "AAF" or "Positive", this is as significant of a development as Landis' revelation was originally.

To be able to go back and have a look at urine samples before and after when a "certain man from Texas" was purported to have had a transfusion must be music to the ears of the authorities.

It is also spells very, very, very troubling news for some other people.

Perhaps this is why Bordry (which one must assume is where most/all of Lance's TdF samples are stored) was so eager to "cooperate"...

I hope we can all appreciate how trite Mr. Fabiani's quote in the NY Daily News article is: "We have no concerns at all about it," said Armstrong's spokesperson Mark Fabiani.

Given all of this, the noose is tightening more quickly than what I could have ever thought.

 

[El Pistolero]

Even if it is used only as corroborating evidence, not a stand-alone "AAF" or "Positive", this is as significant of a development as Landis' revelation was originally.

To be able to go back and have a look at urine samples before and after when a "certain man from Texas" was purported to have had a transfusion must be music to the ears of the authorities.

It is also spells very, very, very troubling news for some other people.

Perhaps this is why Bordry (which one must assume is where most/all of Lance's TdF samples are stored) was so eager to "cooperate"...

I hope we can all appreciate how trite Mr. Fabiani's quote in the NY Daily News article is: "We have no concerns at all about it," said Armstrong's spokesperson Mark Fabiani.

Given all of this, the noose is tightening more quickly than what I could have ever thought.

IV was allowed till 2005. This test is useless as it won't stop blood doping now everyone knows this test exist they'll use different methods.

Funny how the creator of this test doesn't seem to know anything about Contador's test. Makes you wonder about the validity of the so called extremely positive test of Contador. Not a single official organisation have said anything about it as well. What? WADA also in the cover-up conspiracy now?

 

[Merckx index]

Martial Saugy of Lausanne Lab now confirms the elevated DEHP values, and says that they occurred on two days, the 20th and 21st. (The Dutch video indicated an elevated value only on the 20th):

http://translate.google.com/transla...lo/plastico/elpepidep/20101006elpepidep_2/Tes

Also, Bert may now be arguing that he could have gotten the DEHP from injection of 50 cc. of glucose that had been stored in a DEHP-containing bag. Scientific claims that the DEHP would also leach out under these conditions.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Those are very good links, eye opening look to the future. I have a feeling that WADA is likely drawing up some guidelines right now to implement such a test, especially as it seems less intrusive and maybe more thorough than the CO test previously mentioned.

I have a few questions:

1. How far back is the test effectively able to detect blood doping with accuracy? A day? A week? A month?

2. How far back can we retest? Is there a shelf life? Can we go back and re-test athletes from the past, to see just who had what levels? If so, when is the best time to do this? If the test is accurate now, can we do this now?

3. How defeatable is this test in the future? Hence, this is a very dirty sport with a strong omerta. Riders will attempt to use other methods of storing blood to avoid plastic detection, such as coated metal containers, mylar, kevlar, etc. Are there methods to detect this as well? As soon as it's known of a container that can't be detected, the word will spread like wildfire and be adopted by the cheaters.

Also, this test was from urine samples. Would actual blood samples be more beneficial?

 

[Kennf1]

Martial Saugy of Lausanne Lab now confirms the elevated DEHP values, and says that they occurred on two days, the 20th and 21st. (The Dutch video indicated an elevated value only on the 20th):

http://translate.google.com/transla...lo/plastico/elpepidep/20101006elpepidep_2/Tes

Also, Bert may now be arguing that he could have gotten the DEHP from injection of 50 cc. of glucose that had been stored in a DEHP-containing bag. Scientific claims that the DEHP would also leach out under these conditions.

Would that be an IV injection or an intra-muscular? If IV, would it not be prohibited?

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Martial Saugy of Lausanne Lab now confirms the elevated DEHP values, and says that they occurred on two days, the 20th and 21st. (The Dutch video indicated an elevated value only on the 20th):

http://translate.google.com/transla...lo/plastico/elpepidep/20101006elpepidep_2/Tes

Also, Bert may now be arguing that he could have gotten the DEHP from injection of 50 cc. of glucose that had been stored in a DEHP-containing bag. Scientific claims that the DEHP would also leach out under these conditions.

It does not state that Contador is arguing anything like that... Try reading that again.

 

[Merckx index]

Those are very good links, eye opening look to the future. I have a feeling that WADA is likely drawing up some guidelines right now to implement such a test, especially as it seems less intrusive and maybe more thorough than the CO test previously mentioned.

I have a few questions:

1. How far back is the test effectively able to detect blood doping with accuracy? A day? A week? A month?

2. How far back can we retest? Is there a shelf life? Can we go back and re-test athletes from the past, to see just who had what levels? If so, when is the best time to do this? If the test is accurate now, can we do this now?

3. How defeatable is this test in the future? Hence, this is a very dirty sport with a strong omerta. Riders will attempt to use other methods of storing blood to avoid plastic detection, such as coated metal containers, mylar, kevlar, etc. Are there methods to detect this as well? As soon as it's known of a container that can't be detected, the word will spread like wildfire and be adopted by the cheaters.

Also, this test was from urine samples. Would actual blood samples be more beneficial?

1. At least 48 hours, according to Segura study. Probably a little longer, probably not much longer. Depends to some extent on how where the criterion is set.

2. According to a NY Daily News Story, which says LA may be in trouble, scientists believe DEHP metabolites are probably stable in frozen urine for years. But I'm not aware of actual tests.

3. Definitely defeatable. There was a link in this forum recently to a discussion of different blood bags. Some do not leach out DEHP. Also, even one that does could probably be pre-treated with saline or some solution that would remove most of the DEHP, so that blood subsequently stored in it would not remove easily detectable amounts of the substance.

I don't think there is an advantage to blood samples. The urine test works very well, urine is obviously easier to get than blood. Also, substances will be in urine longer after their original ingestion than blood.

 

[Merckx index]

It does not state that Contador is arguing anything like that... Try reading that again.

That's why I said "may be". The original is in Spanish. Alternative readings are welcome.

But I was also addressing an earlier post suggesting that it was not known whether saline in these bags also leached out DEHP. If it does, this could complicate testing of samples from the period when IV saline was allowed. This quote about glucose suggests it isn't just blood that leaches out these substances. Though other data in Segura's study suggest otherwise.

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Those are very good links, eye opening look to the future. I have a feeling that WADA is likely drawing up some guidelines right now to implement such a test, especially as it seems less intrusive and maybe more thorough than the CO test previously mentioned.

I have a few questions:

1. How far back is the test effectively able to detect blood doping with accuracy? A day? A week? A month?

2. How far back can we retest? Is there a shelf life? Can we go back and re-test athletes from the past, to see just who had what levels? If so, when is the best time to do this? If the test is accurate now, can we do this now?

3. How defeatable is this test in the future? Hence, this is a very dirty sport with a strong omerta. Riders will attempt to use other methods of storing blood to avoid plastic detection, such as coated metal containers, mylar, kevlar, etc. Are there methods to detect this as well? As soon as it's known of a container that can't be detected, the word will spread like wildfire and be adopted by the cheaters.

Also, this test was from urine samples. Would actual blood samples be more beneficial?

Much of these questions are already discussed and/or answered. The Ny Daily News article posits that there is no reason one cold not re-test stored, frozen samples for DEHP, as it is not a compound subject to degradation like a steroid.

 

[icefire]

Martial Saugy of Lausanne Lab now confirms the elevated DEHP values, and says that they occurred on two days, the 20th and 21st. (The Dutch video indicated an elevated value only on the 20th):

http://translate.google.com/transla...lo/plastico/elpepidep/20101006elpepidep_2/Tes

Also, Bert may now be arguing that he could have gotten the DEHP from injection of 50 cc. of glucose that had been stored in a DEHP-containing bag. Scientific claims that the DEHP would also leach out under these conditions.

Just a few clarifications from the original in Spanish in case something has been lost in google's translation:

There's no statement from Contador or anyone around him on the DEHP test in that article. The mention to the injection of 50cc of glucose comes from Jordi Segura, the director of the lab in Barcelona who developed a DEHP test. Note that I say 'a' test and not 'the' test, because in the article he says he has not evidence that the German lab is using the same test he developed. Dr Segura says that the usual procedure when a lab puts into practice a new method they contact the reference lab who developed that method to check if all the steps have been correctly implemented. Neither WADA, nor UCI nor the German lab have contacted the Barcelona lab for this.

 

[Merckx index]

Just a few clarifications from the original in Spanish in case something has been lost in google's translation:

There's no statement from Contador or anyone around him on the DEHP test in that article. The mention to the injection of 50cc of glucose comes from Jordi Segura, the director of the lab in Barcelona who developed a DEHP test. Note that I say 'a' test and not 'the' test, because in the article he says he has not evidence that the German lab is using the same test he developed. Dr Segura says that the usual procedure when a lab puts into practice a new method they contact the reference lab who developed that method to check if all the steps have been correctly implemented. Neither WADA, nor UCI nor the German lab have contacted the Barcelona lab for this.

True. But Segura did not actually develop this test. It has been around for years. See, e.g., this study of 2500 subjects published in 2004:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241863/pdf/ehp0112-000331.pdf

Segura's main contribution was to show that elevated DEHP levels are found in urine of blood transfusers. He also looked at three different metabolites of DEHP, rather than one as in the above-referenced study. WADA may demand this extra layer of certainty, and the Dutch video indicated that at least two metabolites had been assayed.