Playing God: Eufemiano Fuentes

[Ryo Hazuki]

You guys could at least drop the conspiracy theories until later today. Manzano's speaking. Surely that's much more tangible and relevant right now?

also willy voet, jorg jaksche, thomas dekker, danny nelissen, bernhard kohl etc all still alive

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Too bad Godwin's Law had to come out of the closet when people are only pointing at a lot of coincidences around this trial.

To kill of a discussion just throw out 'conspiracy theory!'.

A suicide, a heartattack, an Alzheimer patient and lots and lots of denials. Liked the Nozal statement of yesterday: ''u should ask my doctor''. Well, the doc was sitting right in front or wasn't he...

So, Manzano today.

 

[Lanark]

This Puerto trial is an indication of how a T&R process would have virtually no chance of succeeding. Even in a courtroom situation with real judges, the tendancy is to lie or only to tell the partial truth when the blatant evidence makes it too ridiculous to lie. Lots of memory failure, not much openness.

To be honest, I'm quite shocked by this. I could maybe see why Basso would still be lying, not wanting to lose his Giro title, but why are people like Nozal perjuring themselves, with virtually no benefit, and a risk of an actual punishment. These people must be the worlds biggest idiots.

 

[GJB123]

Too bad Godwin's Law had to come out of the closet when people are only pointing at a lot of coincidences around this trial.

To kill of a discussion just throw out 'conspiracy theory!'.

A suicide, a heartattack, an Alzheimer patient and lots and lots of denials. Liked the Nozal statement of yesterday: ''u should ask my doctor''. Well, the doc was sitting right in front or wasn't he...

So, Manzano today.

Godwin's law? Did anybody actually refer to the second Word War?

And as far as I am concerned you can discuss corruption or conspiracies to your heart's content. However don't blame people for pointing out the fallacies in you assumptions. That is also part and parcel of a discussion.

 

[hrotha]

Lal, Manzano about oxyglobin (for dogs) and actovegin (from calf blood): "We'd take them and then bark or moo".

 

[zebedee]

This is not very true. Most people in Spain are either for Barca or for Madrid. In either case they have 11-15 sporting idols that rank ahead of Contador. Or one can take the intersection, which is the Spanish national side. Certainly Iniesta, Xavi, Casillas, etc. Then there are Rafal Nadal and Fernando Alonso.

And of course handballer Iñaki Undangarin (Duke of Palma) is a sort of national emblem right now, although for entirely different reasons ...

Also nobody in Spain believes Contador´s stories (we are not "tontos", just "corruptos"). Some people like him away, but that is a different matter.

I'd hazard a guess at saying the tennis players on Fuentes list are more likely to come from a golden generation of Spanish players that emerged before Nadal; players like Costa, Moya (ex world No 1, briefly), Bruguera, Berasatagui et al. Berasatagui's career was basically foreshortened, amongst other injury problems, by a persistent, supposedly mysterious, muscle cramping problem, a condition that is known can be brought on by overuse of diuretics.

If Nadal does feature on the list he must have been doping from an incredibly young age, although he did turn pro before he reached sixteen.

Rather than accuse Nadal - and I know he's rumoured to be on Fuentes list - I believe a stronger case lies in an argument that says doping built Spain into the tennis powerhouse it is today, and which started with the generation of players that burst onto the scene prior to Nadal. Spain was never traditionally strong at tennis before these players arrived. It had never won the Davis Cup prior to 2000 and has now held the title five times, I think it is. Surprise, surprise.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Godwin's law? Did anybody actually refer to the second Word War?

And as far as I am concerned you can discuss corruption or conspiracies to your heart's content. However don't blame people for pointing out the fallacies in you assumptions. That is also part and parcel of a discussion.

Conspiracy Theory = the new Godwin.

Fallacies? I only pointed towards coincidences, you are making it bigger yourself my friend, or should I say amigo?

Lal, Manzano about oxyglobin (for dogs) and actovegin (from calf blood): "We'd take them and then bark or moo".

It is sad, he and Jaksche, Basso a minor miniscule confession, versus all the apogists. That is no court of law. T&R will be the same. These guys can't stop lying.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

'Nothing short of dynamite will convince some people which century they are living in.'

George Orwell.

 

[Bobito_B]

I'd hazard a guess at saying the tennis players on Fuentes list are more likely to come from a golden generation of Spanish players that emerged before Nadal; players like Costa, Moya (ex world No 1, briefly), Bruguera, Berasatagui et al. Berasatagui's career was basically foreshortened, amongst other injury problems, by a persistent, supposedly mysterious, muscle cramping problem, a condition that is known can be brought on by overuse of diuretics.

If Nadal does feature on the list he must have been doping from an incredibly young age, although he did turn pro before he reached sixteen.

Rather than accuse Nadal - and I know he's rumoured to be on Fuentes list - I believe a stronger case lies in an argument that says doping built Spain into the tennis powerhouse it is today, and which started with the generation of players that burst onto the scene prior to Nadal. Spain was never traditionally strong at tennis before these players arrived. It had never won the Davis Cup prior to 2000 and has now held the title five times, I think it is. Surprise, surprise.

This is quite funny. I was commenting on their popularity, not the likelihood they were dopers ... odd how easy it is to confuse the two ...

 

[hrotha]

It is sad, he and Jaksche, Basso a minor miniscule confession, versus all the apogists. That is no court of law. T&R will be the same. These guys can't stop lying.

Basso belongs in the same group as the apologists.

 

[xrayvision]

a 52 year old construction worker? yeah, sure.
a 52 year old doctor? not that often, to be honest.

Thats the worst BS I have ever heard, as a heart patient I can assure you any doc is just as much in danger as anybody else, in fact my own doc had a heart attack during work out in his basement and died from it, he was 45 years old.
My uncle who was a gynecologist died from a heart attack 38 years old, maybe it was an idea to actually search some facts before you post them.

And the saying a doctor is the worst patient is a fact, they are the worse ones to listen to the signals.

 

[zebedee]

This is quite funny. I was commenting on their popularity, not the likelihood they were dopers ... odd how easy it is to confuse the two ...

Funny? In what way? I was making a different point to yours picking up on the fact that Nadal is strongly rumoured to have cropped up on Fuentes list (was even accused of such at the time) which is to miss a much bigger, underlying picture that surrounds Spanish tennis (and football).

 

[airstream]

What the f*ck are you on about? Because I don't dump on the Spanish legal system or refuse to see conspiracies where there most likely are none, I am all of a sudden in favor of "Puerto guys". Please enlighten me how you came to that conclusion Sherlock! Or is it just one of you usual brain farts again?

I think the way Puerto is unfoded is ok for you.

If we are to have a discussion on possible conspiracies going on including actually people being killed off, I am a guy who at least tries to have that discussion based on facts rather than on supposition, gut feelings and assumptions.

You know when almost all facts are hidden, there is no harm in assumptions.

EDIT: and someone from Belarus complaining about corruption and the legal system in another country. That really does take the biscuit! I say Matthew 7:3-5.

Why does Belarus have with that? No one represent its national interests on the forum. One has an opinion not related to nationality.

Puerto and corruption? What you mean? IMO, in a country where 100 guys where covered up as though nothing had happens judicial power always express a point of executive power. So I don't who and whome could pay other one in this situation.

 

[GJB123]

I think the way Puerto is unfoded is ok for you.

Again, Sherlock, you think that because of what exactly?

 

[airstream]

Huh, poor Manzano. Apparently, a cheap transfusion service could give anything except a boost of perfomance.

 

[pastronef]

Basso belongs in the same group as the apologists.

agree 100%

 

[cineteq]

Basso belongs in the same group as the apologists.

Exactly, plus he's been banned already, no confession really necessary. Btw, do you know what happened to Scarponi? He was scheduled for a hearing today.

 

[Escarabajo]

I cannot believe that Spanish people do not even fear the court rooms. Perjury? who cares, I'll lie anyway.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Basso belongs in the same group as the apologists.

Guess you are right, was merely he admitted he had blood sucked out of him, a lot of other riders will not even go that far.

Glad to know his 2006 Giro was without Fuentes help of course

Little note, his 2005 Giro was even better if I recall correctly, before he got 'sick'.

 

[sniper]

manzano claiming 180,000 in damages.
hope he gets it. if he does, I'll drink a beer for him.

does anybody know roughly what he's been up to after quitting cycling?

 

[airstream]

I wouldn't be surprised to know that he got sick not because of stomach rather than imperfection of Syberia.

 

[ElChingon]

I've enjoyed your conspiracy theories, keep them coming, sure beats what happens in the Sky threads.

Also, this is a great comparison or prediction to any T&R to come. As always they will toe the line till their bitter end, there is no other way. Just look at how R. D. went, talk or jail/ban for life and how long it took them to fess up, don't expect anything different here. Unless someone actually leaks it out in full with no stone unturned.

 

[cineteq]

For those who missed it live earlier today.

"Manzano dropped an early bombshell when he produced his UCI health card from 2003. This, he said, showed that he had a working relationship with Eufemiano Fuentes, who had previously testified he had no relationship with Manzano. The card bore Fuentes’s signature, indicating he was the rider’s doctor. Although the doctor’s lawyer attempted to have the card struck out as evidence, the judge overruled this protest and Fuentes confirmed the signature was indeed his."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/manzano-delivers-shocking-evidence-at-puerto-trial

 

[DirtyWorks]

The card bore Fuentes’s signature, indicating he was the rider’s doctor.

It's all a misunderstanding. Fuentes was doping rider to protect their health.

Fuentes can't keep the lies straight. Given the way the articles coming out of Spain on the topic are written, he STILL might get off unpunished.

 

[LutherB]

Manzano summary here:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/manzano-delivers-shocking-evidence-at-puerto-trial

There was this in there:

When I was in the hospital in France we told them not to do any blood tests because if they had we could have gone to prison

Are the riders sent to 'sympathetic' hospitals? How can they be told what tests not to do?