Playing God: Eufemiano Fuentes

[Mrs John Murphy]

I've enjoyed your conspiracy theories, keep them coming, sure beats what happens in the Sky threads.

Also, this is a great comparison or prediction to any T&R to come. As always they will toe the line till their bitter end, there is no other way. Just look at how R. D. went, talk or jail/ban for life and how long it took them to fess up, don't expect anything different here. Unless someone actually leaks it out in full with no stone unturned.

I would actually disagree with the people who say that the evidence of Basso, Dertie Cont, etc is why T & R won't work. While omertists like Benson, McQuaid want to use T & R to sweep doping under the carpet, so for them, T& R as they propose would achieve their goal. A true TRC in the South African model would have teeth. A true TRC would actually have weapons at its disposal to be able to tackle omerta.

At the moment, Basso can go to court, lie and face no consequences.

In true TRC (as opposed to the version proposed by the UCI) you have carrot and stick. The carrot is amnesty in return for the full truth. The stick is punishment for failing to give the truth.

The TRC panel would be able to look at the evidence from say Basso and say 'he is lying' and give him a 2+ year ban. The TRC panel could look at Jaksche's testimony and say 'he has told the truth' and give him an amnesty.

Basically you would say:

refuse to testify - 4 year ban
testify but lie - 3 year ban
testify but only about self - 18 month ban
testify and tell complete truth - amnesty

So in fact the failure to get Basso to open up gives greater weight for the argument for a true TRC and not what the UCI are proposing.

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

I would actually disagree with the people who say that the evidence of Basso, Dertie Cont, etc is why T & R won't work. While omertists like Benson, McQuaid want to use T & R to sweep doping under the carpet, so for them, T& R as they propose would achieve their goal. A true TRC in the South African model would have teeth. A true TRC would actually have weapons at its disposal to be able to tackle omerta.

At the moment, Basso can go to court, lie and face no consequences.

In true TRC (as opposed to the version proposed by the UCI) you have carrot and stick. The carrot is amnesty in return for the full truth. The stick is punishment for failing to give the truth.

The TRC panel would be able to look at the evidence from say Basso and say 'he is lying' and give him a 2+ year ban. The TRC panel could look at Jaksche's testimony and say 'he has told the truth' and give him an amnesty.

Basically you would say:

refuse to testify - 4 year ban
testify but lie - 3 year ban
testify but only about self - 18 month ban
testify and tell complete truth - amnesty

So in fact the failure to get Basso to open up gives greater weight for the argument for a true TRC and not what the UCI are proposing.

Fine in theory but, speaking as a former lawyer, nightmare to enforce practically. How would you prove, to a criminal standard that somebody lied to a T & R? We all may think that Basso is telling porkies, but proving it?

P.S. Gigantic, best Pixies tune by a mile.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Fine in theory but, speaking as a former lawyer, nightmare to enforce practically. How would you prove, to a criminal standard that somebody lied to a T & R? We all may think that Basso is telling porkies, but proving it?

P.S. Gigantic, best Pixies tune by a mile.

You have the blood bags, you have the testimony from others ie Fuentes himself, you have the documentary evidence.

Plus - Basso for example doesn't know who else is going to testify after him - what happens if Riis is called and goes for the nuclear option if faced with a lifetime ban from the sport.

You would have the USADA evidence, the Puerto evidence, Frieburg, Rabo etc

The bans would be handed out at the end of the TRC.

The panel in the end acts as jury and judge in this case.

It's a big big love

 

[Spencer the Half Wit]

You have the blood bags, you have the testimony from others ie Fuentes himself, you have the documentary evidence.

Plus - Basso for example doesn't know who else is going to testify after him - what happens if Riis is called and goes for the nuclear option if faced with a lifetime ban from the sport.

You would have the USADA evidence, the Puerto evidence, Frieburg, Rabo etc

The bans would be handed out at the end of the TRC.

The panel in the end acts as jury and judge in this case.

It's a big big love

However, the standard of evidence required to impliment those bans would have to be much higher than the normal clinic speculation. I'll wait to see the end of this case to comment on whether there would be enough to nail Basso and others.

Hey Paul, let's have a ball.

 

[Pandora]

Published today:

During Jaksche’s evidence, Fuentes’ lawyer attempted to discredit the witness by pointing to the Tour de Suisse in 2006. Jaksche finished third in the race which took place after Fuentes’ doping had been busted.

“He asked about my third place in the Tour of Switzerland and asked if it was a hard race. He said Fuentes had been arrested by this point, and was trying to imply I was still blood doping.”

“I said it wasn’t a race, more of a club championships. He asked me to clarify what I meant. So I said ‘yes, it was a club championship. The winner of the race was Jan Ullrich, a client of Fuentes, second was Koldo Gil, a client of Fuentes, third was me, fourth was Vicioso, another Fuentes client, sixth was Frank Schleck’. Everyone in the court, even the judge was laughing. It was ridiculous.

Source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/jaksche-mcquaid-should-be-removed-as-uci-president

If I were Fuentes' lawyer, I would remain silent by the end of the trial
And a nice touch about certain Frank S... JJ not saying directly FS was Fuentes' client, but still... saying just about enough.

 

[cineteq]

More damning evidence from Dr. Olaf Schumacher, but will it be enough?

"Blood transfusions can cause permanent damage to organs or even death"

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ntes-defense-in-operacion-puerto-trial_274770

 

[del1962]

However, the standard of evidence required to impliment those bans would have to be much higher than the normal clinic speculation. I'll wait to see the end of this case to comment on whether there would be enough to nail Basso and others.

Hey Paul, let's have a ball.

I think this is the difficulty for what in an ideal world wood be a good plab (though in an ideal world know one would be doping)

 

[LaFlorecita]

More damning evidence from Dr. Olaf Schumacher, but will it be enough?

"Blood transfusions can cause permanent damage to organs or even death"

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ntes-defense-in-operacion-puerto-trial_274770

Just hope Alberto knows what he's doing :S

 

[sniper]

why is tyler allowed to testify through videoconference and not alberto?

 

[hrotha]

why is tyler allowed to testify through videoconference and not alberto?

I imagine it is because Contador will be within reasonable distance of the court, but no sources seem to mention the judge's reasoning.

 

[ElChingon]

More damning evidence from Dr. Olaf Schumacher, but will it be enough?

"Blood transfusions can cause permanent damage to organs or even death"

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ntes-defense-in-operacion-puerto-trial_274770

Wow, it took those nim-wits just one random doctor in a court to alert them to something the rest of the world already knew? Maybe they should get another expert witness to tell them taking blood out of some people on the planet could lead to total blood loss and death if its not stopped

 

[pastronef]

Just hope Alberto knows what he's doing :S

nice one Bloemetje

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Can only hope most of the young riders in today's peloton are paying attention to all the dirt coming out of this trial. Step across the line and thats it. No way back, like being in quicksand.

 

[LaFlorecita]

nice one Bloemetje

I want him to win but I don't want him to horribly damage his body or even die.

 

[sniper]

Do the mods have figures on the geographic spread of CN forum posters?
I sometimes get the feeling the Netherlands is comparatively well represented in here.

 

[coinneach]

Do the mods have figures on the geographic spread of CN forum posters?
I sometimes get the feeling the Netherlands is comparatively well represented in here.

I sometimes get the feeling that posters from the Netherlands talk a lot less c*** than posters from elsewhere

 

[pastronef]

Do the mods have figures on the geographic spread of CN forum posters?
I sometimes get the feeling the Netherlands is comparatively well represented in here.

the only Dutch I remember here is Florecita, but I don't follow the forum too much.

you know what Flo, that's the same thing Italian fans did think about Pantani. they, we, didn't give a scyt of what he did behind the curtains.. just give us those huge wins in the mountains

but hey

times have changed now

 

[cineteq]

Just hope Alberto knows what he's doing :S

Only the truth will set him free.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Fine in theory but, speaking as a former lawyer, nightmare to enforce practically. How would you prove, to a criminal standard that somebody lied to a T & R?

It would be spectacular truthiness. Wonderboy would show up and do an even worse Doprah performance lying all the way through. All the UCI's favored dopers could do the same in a few different languages.

But, things still haven't gotten that bad for Hein. Rogge likes him and will likely de-fund WADA to protect the dopers.

 

[ElChingon]

Only the truth will set him free.

Free from cycling duties as he'd be banned for life

 

[Lanark]

Nothing we didn't know, but it confirms what everybody suspected. NRC Handelsblad had a story this morning that links a couple of Fuentes-codes to riders, based on anonymous sources and linking the racing schedules of these riders to Fuentes' files.

Panticosa = Pantani, was a client in 2003. Only use of growth hormone and Insuline in the files.

Sansone = Michele Bartoli, client in 2002, 2003 and 2004. Used pretty much everything, EPO, Aranesp, steroids, cortisones, growth hormones and blood transfusion.

VAINS = Romans Vainsteins, client in 2003 and 2004. Used the same as Bartoli. They quote a Dutch Rider David Orbalho who says he also used in 2001, when he already had a doctors bill of 40.000 Gulden (about 17.000 euro, not with Fuentes at that time).

Amigo de Birillo = Frank Schleck, only blooddoping. Several Fuentes clients confirm he is Amigo de Birillo, and a source close to him confirms this, but says Andy Schleck wasn't a client of Fuentes.

 

[Gregga]

Panticosa = Pantani, was a client in 2003. Only use of growth hormone and Insuline in the files.

Pantani used HM lepori, IGF, Aranesp, classic EPO, and many transfusions in 2003 with Fuentes, his schedule is document number 131 of Tomo IV (available in usada files). It was his last doping program, with all that he only achieved 14th in the 2003 Giro.

The real new thing is about Schleck, hope his schedule will be released soon as Cipollini's ! I guess Andy started blood doping only in 2007 (watch him following Di Luca in the Giro), certainly with a doping doctor we still don't know.

And I still wonder were Vino is hidden in all that mess !

 

[Mad Elephant Man]

Nothing we didn't know, but it confirms what everybody suspected. NRC Handelsblad had a story this morning that links a couple of Fuentes-codes to riders, based on anonymous sources and linking the racing schedules of these riders to Fuentes' files.

Panticosa = Pantani, was a client in 2003. Only use of growth hormone and Insuline in the files.

Sansone = Michele Bartoli, client in 2002, 2003 and 2004. Used pretty much everything, EPO, Aranesp, steroids, cortisones, growth hormones and blood transfusion.

VAINS = Romans Vainsteins, client in 2003 and 2004. Used the same as Bartoli. They quote a Dutch Rider David Orbalho who says he also used in 2001, when he already had a doctors bill of 40.000 Gulden (about 17.000 euro, not with Fuentes at that time).

Amigo de Birillo = Frank Schleck, only blooddoping. Several Fuentes clients confirm he is Amigo de Birillo, and a source close to him confirms this, but says Andy Schleck wasn't a client of Fuentes.

No doubt Frank was a client
Andy was still young so may not have been. Probably took to a full doping problem a bit later.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Only the truth will set him free.

No not a good idea I just hope he's careful and has some good doctors to offer "medical support"

 

[hrotha]

Pantani used HM lepori, IGF, Aranesp, classic EPO, and many transfusions in 2003 with Fuentes, his schedule is document number 131 of Tomo IV (available in usada files). It was his last doping program, with all that he only achieved 14th in the 2003 Giro.

"Only"? It was viewed as a big success at the time. Remember where he came from.