Teams & Riders Pogačar as GOAT: already, never, or when?

[Salvarani]

However it doesn't make much sense to look at their number of podiums, unless they're tied on number of Tour wins/total GT wins, which obviously isn't the case at the moment.

Extinction seems to be looking at it like a current power ranking, and Vingegaard is ahead on such a list right now, since he has beat Pogačar in a GT two times in a row. If Pogačar wins this year's Tour, he will regain the lead, even if Vingegaard finishes a close second or doesn't ride at all.

The podiums matters in terms of the generational aspect. All the results over a decade or so.

And with three wins, he is ahead currently.

He is in the lead, right now, no matter how you twist and turn it as they are tied on Tour wins and Pog has won the Giro. He is in the lead. The podiums adds to such a claim and other results to the generational claim over Vinge, since that seems to be his biggest competitor right now for that claim. Who knows what happens in the next 5 years, but today Pog is in the lead for such a claim.

Who won the most recent one vs the other, doesnt really matter when talking about "generational". Since when talking about generational, you have to take everything that has happened into account. Then you first have to look at wins and then other results. Pog both has more wins and more other results to back it up over Vinge. Even if the latter won the last Tour. It doesnt put him above him, as for now at least, when talking generational. It only means he won the last one. He is not in the lead because of that. I am only talking about current standings in terms of generational. Pog leads the rankings for this generation, right now. Today June 15th 2024.

 

[Extinction]

I didnt say that.

But you are subjectively discussing the question.

Based on wins and results, Pog is currently ahead. Thats is what matters to determine best/greatest generational GT-talent at the end of day. Not who was strongest in one year out of 10 or something years.

So what did you say, because it's not at all coherent to me? And just because you keep saying something doesn't make it so.

You conveniently see things in black and white, but then talk about subjectivity. So which is it, one or the other? I think in this case, the specific weight of Vingo's last two Tour wins makes him the current top GT dog until demonstrated otherwise. Pog just won the Giro, but the Giro is not the Tour. On strength alone, had he been able to deploy it maximally, Vingo would have won the Vuelta last year, instead of getting second. But it isn't just the wins per se when we are talking about guys if this caliber. It's about wins against each other and both have more coming. So who in the end who will come out on top as the best GC rider of his generation? Bar further injury, based on what we have seen thus far, I'd put my money on Vingegaard. Yet Pog may make me reevaluate if he dominates this Tour.

 

[Salvarani]

So what did you say, because it's not at all coherent to me? And just because you keep saying something doesn't make it so.

You conveniently see things in black and white, but then talk about subjectivity. So which is it, one or the other? I think in this case, the specific weight of Vingo's last two Tour wins makes him the current top GT dog until demonstrated otherwise. Pog just won the Giro, but the Giro is not the Tour. On strength alone, had he been able to deploy it maximally, Vingo would have won the Vuelta last year, instead of getting second. But it isn't just the wins per se when we are talking about guys if this caliber. It's about wins against each other and both have more coming. So who in the end who will come out on top as the best GC rider of his generation? Bar further injury, based on what we have seen thus far, I'd put my money on Vingegaard. Yet Pog may make me reevaluate if he dominates this Tour.

You just wanna go about the last two the Tours.... when you cant just do that when talking about being the best generational GT-rider. Pog leads that ranking on wins, currently, over Vinge for this generation. Which qualifies for your claim that you said he needed.

Over a generation is not just them vs each other.

I am also saying right now. Not anything else. Pog is in the lead, right now. Who knows if he will be in five years.

 

[Extinction]

However it doesn't make much sense to look at their number of podiums, unless they're tied on number of Tour wins/total GT wins, which obviously isn't the case at the moment.

Extinction seems to be looking at it like a current power ranking, and Vingegaard is ahead on such a list right now, since he has beat Pogačar in a GT two times in a row. If Pogačar wins this year's Tour, he will regain the lead, even if Vingegaard finishes a close second or doesn't ride at all.

I'm looking at it in terms of who has demonstrated better performance over the 3-weeks and the peaks of power in certain key moments. Vingo on the Granon and, above all, in last years TT seem to indicate he is the one. But it's still a work in progress.

 

[Salvarani]

That doesnt matter when talking about being generational the best/greatest. Wins and other results matter over an extended amount of time.

That he was better on that day, one year... thats is as I said only subjective, if he doesnt go on to win many more and surpass Pogs results.

Pog is in the lead. Vinge has the talent to be the best generational GT-rider, if he can go on to win more GTs. Nobody is questioning that he could, but he is not in the lead as of now. That is Pog for this generation, right now! Only right now...

 

[Extinction]

You just wanna go about the last two the Tours.... when you cant just do that when talking about being the best generational GT-rider. Pog leads that ranking on wins, currently, over Vinge for this generation. Which qualifies for your claim that you said he needed.

Over a generation is not just them vs each other.

I am also saying right now. Not anything else. Pog is in the lead, right now. Who knows if he will be in five years.

It starts and ends with the Tour, however, when dealing with these two guys in the final analysis. Each will get the hat trick of all GTs I bet eventually, but it's gonna be their respective track records at the Tour that supplies the final verdict. At the moment, Vingo has impressed me more than Pogi in this decisive category. At any rate, I predict attrition and aerobic capacity will soon kick in to establish who is the best GT rider amongst them.

 

[Salvarani]

It starts and ends with the Tour, however, when dealing with these two guys in the final analysis. Each will get the hat trick of all GTs I bet eventually, but it's gonna be their respective track records at the Tour that supplies the final verdict. At the moment, Vingo has impressed me more than Pogi in this decisive category. At any rate, I predict attrition and aerobic capacity will soon kick in to establish who is the best GT rider amongst them.

Pog leads resultswise in the Tour, currently. As I have said, currently he is in the lead. It might not end up looking like that in 5 years from now.

We will see. We definitely need more extended time to decide.

But pertaining to your original claim, he fulfills it today. Might not later.

Thats where we are at.

 

[Extinction]

Pog leads resultswise in the Tour, currently. As I have said, currently he is in the lead. It might not end up looking like that in 5 years from now.

We will see. We definitely need more extended time to decide.

Oh, because he has one more second place than Vingegaard? Yet you conveniently neglect to mention both second places were against Vingegaard and that he has also ridden the Tour one more time than Jonas. But we'll leave that to the stats in about 3-5 years and evaluate again.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

The podiums matters in terms of the generational aspect. All the results over a decade or so.

And with three wins, he is ahead currently.

He is in the lead, right now, no matter how you twist and turn it as they are tied on Tour wins and Pog has won the Giro. He is in the lead. The podiums adds to such a claim and other results to the generational claim over Vinge, since that seems to be his biggest competitor right now for that claim. Who knows what happens in the next 5 years, but today Pog is in the lead for such a claim.

Who won the most recent one vs the other, doesnt really matter when talking about "generational". Since when talking about generational, you have to take everything that has happened into account. Then you first have to look at wins and then other results. Pog both has more wins and more other results to back it up over Vinge. Even if the latter won the last Tour. It doesnt put him above him, as for now at least, when talking generational. It only means he won the last one. He is not in the lead because of that. I am only talking about current standings in terms of generational. Pog leads the rankings for this generation, right now. Today June 15th 2024.

I agree he's clealy ahead after he won the Giro. Before that they were tied (you could argue Vingegaard had a slight edge by having been the outright strongest in two GTs, which wasn't the case for Pogačar, but that is both semantics and a can of worms, I see no point in opening).

I maintain that the podiums don't matter that much if one has more Tour/GT wins.

 

[Salvarani]

Oh, because he has one more second place than Vingegaard? Yet you conveniently neglect to mention both second places were against Vingegaard and that he has also ridden the Tour one more time than Jonas. But we'll leave that to the stats in about 3-5 years and evaluate again.

As the claim for being generationally the best. Pog is in the lead. Only thing I thought we are arguing or what I am arguing, at least. Pertaining to your original claim.

He has results, right now, to back it up and by being in the lead. Currently.

Might look different in the future.

Only talking about who is leading today, though.

 

[Salvarani]

I agree he's clealy ahead after he won the Giro. Before that they were tied (you could argue Vingegaard had a slight edge by having been the outright strongest in two GTs, which wasn't the case for Pogačar, but that is both semantics and a can of worms, I see no point in opening).

I maintain that the podiums don't matter that much if one has more Tour/GT wins.

If one has more wins than the other, they have the best case for claiming being the best generational GT-rider but all the results over an extended amount of time always have to be taken into account as well.

We will see what happens.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

If one has more wins than the other, they have the best case for claiming being the best generational GT-rider but all the results over an extended amount of time always have to be taking into account as well.

We will see what happens.

They will of course be part of a bigger picture, but I'm looking to honour a serial winner rather than a consistent loser.

 

[Salvarani]

They will of course be part of a bigger picture, but I'm looking to honour a seriel winner rather than a consistent loser.

Well, I am saying wins matters the most but in terms of spanning over a generation... who was the best... you have to take into account who did it consistently as well. Not just the peaks. I am saying that within context to someone who also have the WINS to back it up.

 

[TrekCyclist]

when it comes to the question who is the best GT rider, what counts for me is first and foremost the results head-to-head.
who won more other GTs, where the strongest competitors did not particpate, is only secondary to me.

 

[Salvarani]

The conversation is generational. Not head to head.

Pog is the current leader of the generation. Current. Decided who can ultimately claim that can only be done later. But if he is, he would fulfill a criteria that a poster had for GOAT status.

I would say Vinge was the best GT-rider 2022-2023. That might not mean much for a conversation that decides who was the best over a generation. Total wins and other results decides that.

 

[Extinction]

The conversation is generational. Not head to head.

Pog is the current leader of the generation. Current. Decided who can ultimately claim that can only be done later. But if he is, he would fulfill a criteria that a poster had for GOAT status.

I would say Vinge was the best GT-rider 2022-2023. That might not mean much for a conversation that decides who was the best over a generation.

Right now they are the only two guys that count for this generation in terms of this debate, ergo who wins more in head to head confrontations (especially at the Tour) will decide who is the best GT rider between them. Unless sombody else comes along who is better while they are still hot, but that's looking increasingly unlikely. And it doesn't matter if Pog goes on to win more Giros or a Vuelta or 2, if he consistently gets beaten by Vingegaard at the Tour.

 

[Salvarani]

Right now they are the only two guys that count for this generation in terms of this debate, ergo who wins more in head to head confrontations (especially at the Tour) will decide who is the best GT rider between them. Unless sombody else comes along who is better while they are still hot, but that's looking increasingly unlikely. And it doesn't matter if Pog goes on to win more Giros or a Vuelta or 2, if he consistently gets beaten by Vingegaard at the Tour from here on out.

Okay, we dont know that.

Facts are Pog is in the lead, right now.

He may not be in the future if Vinge goes on to win more Tours and he doesnt win any more GTs. Nobody is disputing that.

Doesnt change the fact that Pog is currently leading, for now.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I decided to laugh at both posts to balance things out.

 

[Blanco]

The conversation is generational. Not head to head.

Pog is the current leader of the generation. Current. Decided who can ultimately claim that can only be done later. But if he is, he would fulfill a criteria that a poster had for GOAT status.

I would say Vinge was the best GT-rider 2022-2023. That might not mean much for a conversation that decides who was the best over a generation. Total wins and other results decides that.

What is a generation?
There are two riders who have more GT wins than Pogacar.
And there is a rider who beat him comfortably at the Tour for two consecutive years.
So how is he then the best GT rider?

 

[Peyroteo94]

What is a generation?
There are two riders who have more GT wins than Pogacar.
And there is a rider who beat him comfortably at the Tour for two consecutive years.
So how is he then the best GT rider?

Froome had 0 GT's at 25 years old. Pogacar is on his way to have a better GT palmares than Froome in his entire career before he turns 29 years old (Froome won his first GT in 2013 at 28 years old. I know he was gifted the 2011 Vuelta 10 years later).
Roglic GT palmares is worse than Pogacar and Vingegaard even if he has more GT wins.

 

[shadowrider]

I think Salvari has it right. The two wins of Vingegaard, the last two years, him beating (almost destroying) Pogacar, gives him a lead. Vingegaard is/was actual the better GC-rider. Even if Vingegaard, after his crash, will be beaten by Vingegaard in the upcoming Tour, one can not say Poga will be the best. We'll have to wait for another Tour. With both riders starting at 100 %. I know Poga was also not at his best during last year's Tour, due to his wristprobems. But that cannot be compared to Vingegaard's serious injuries this year.
Of course, on long terms, once Vingegaard in his thirties, and Poga two years younger, Pogacar will "take the lead". Also because of Pogacar's other wins in GT's then and because of his results all-out.

 

[shadowrider]

Froome had 0 GT's at 25 years old. Pogacar is on his way to have a better GT palmares than Froome in his entire career before he turns 29 years old (Froome won his first GT in 2013 at 28 years old. I know he was gifted the 2011 Vuelta 10 years later).
Roglic GT palmares is worse than Pogacar and Vingegaard even if he has more GT wins.

Froome starting earlier at the highest level and without Wiggins (and the team blokking Froome), Froome would have won more Tour's and GT's. I will remark a lot of people predicted Bernal winning five or more Tour's, even in row. Later they did the same with Pogacar. We all know how it went. Bernal will not win several Tour's, probably not even a second. I'm not sure Poga will win more than one or two extra Tour's. Not only because of Vingegaard, but also because of the talented younger generation. Those youngsters are always stronger than the previous generations, taking in considaration the actual topriders becoming older.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Froome starting earlier at the highest level and without Wiggins (and the team blokking Froome), Froome would have won more Tour's and GT's. I will remark a lot of people predicted Bernal winning five or more Tour's, even in row. Later they did the same with Pogacar. We all know how it went. Bernal will not win several Tour's, probably not even a second. I'm not sure Poga will win more than one or two extra Tour's. Not only because of Vingegaard, but also because of the talented younger generation. Those youngsters are always stronger than the previous generations, taking in considaration the actual topriders becoming older.

From 2024 to 2027, Pogacar has to win 2 Tours. It isn't a very hard task specially due to him being the hot favourite for 2024.
In 2025, he will try Tour-Vuelta and after that we will see his palmares

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Froome starting earlier at the highest level and without Wiggins (and the team blokking Froome), Froome would have won more Tour's and GT's. I will remark a lot of people predicted Bernal winning five or more Tour's, even in row. Later they did the same with Pogacar. We all know how it went. Bernal will not win several Tour's, probably not even a second. I'm not sure Poga will win more than one or two extra Tour's. Not only because of Vingegaard, but also because of the talented younger generation. Those youngsters are always stronger than the previous generations, taking in considaration the actual topriders becoming older.

One has to consider number of prime years as well. Even legends of the sport usually had max. 8-9 prime years. Pogacar entered his prime at the age of 21/22 (now it's 5th season of his prime) so it's not a given that he'll be on top of his game at the age of 30.

 

[Rechtschreibfehler]

When it comes to Pogacar vs. Vingegaard in GTs than it's clear that Pogacar is ahead on results and Vingegaard on magnitude of the wins, simply by handily beatiing Pogacar twice.

Yet Pogacar is 25 and Vingegaar also only 27. Even though Pogacar and Bernal have been extremely young winners and there are more and more very successful young rider, the fact remains that cycling is a sport where you are expected to reach your prime in latter half of your carrer rather than in the first. Hence the young riders classification is a U25 classification (even though it should probably lowered to 23, looking at the developement atm). So Pogacar on classical terms has his first year as a senior rider, the year in Vingegaards carreer in which he won his first Tour.
There are yet many years to come for both of them, and it's unclear if we've seen any one of them in their peak so far.

To me it seems Pogacar is stronger than he was last year overall, that might be an optical illusion, but it's really not impossible given his age. So it's imo possible a specifically prepared and fully fit Pogacar can actually beat Vingegaard head to head. But it remains to be seen. There are years ahead of us to have this debate if things go well.