Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[armchairclimber]

I'm of the view that "them's the breaks". It's part of GT racing, as is falling off, getting sick, having a crap day, suddenly getting asthma etc etc If Porte has anything about him, this will make the race. He can make the time up on Aru in the TT and, if Contador suffers discomfort as a result of his own mis-hap, maybe him too. Perhaps it will allow a surprise package to jump from the also rans. At the end of the day, at least it will force him onto the attack, whereas he might have taken time on his rivals in the TT and, with typical SKY efficiency, defended to the finish.

I'd be interested to know how many forum members knew of this rule.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

I understand now why cyclingnews disabled comments. They can really cloud your judgement. Initially I thought the punishment was way too harsh, but after reading the lunacy of the "absolutely impartial" in-no-way-Porte-fans I kind of wished they had enforced this rule:

2.3.012
All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food,
drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has
been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the
same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.

But the comments in the forum are eloquent and completely sane...

 

[arvc40]

Imagine how many race results in last 50 years would be different if every rider with a mechanical had assistance from a mate on another Team. Teams would soon put a stop to that. Why do you think riders stand there waiting for team cars in Roubaix. Can't all start helping other Teams

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

I understand now why cyclingnews disabled comments. They can really cloud your judgement. Initially I thought the punishment was way too harsh, but after reading the lunacy of the "absolutely impartial" in-no-way-Porte-fans I kind of wished they had enforced this rule:

2.3.012
All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food, drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.

But the comments in the forum are eloquent and completely sane...

At least when you go to the forum you've intentionally gone down the rabbit-hole. Still, it's quite a tumble, ain't it?

 

[T-Nielsen]

Re: Re:

And do you have evidence that they didn't push?
I know you're huge Giro fan, but give me a brake.
This has nothing to do with sportsmanship.

The claim is yours, you should have sth to support it.If you don't, you can't really complain if it just seems bs.

That's your classic spin... asking for evidence. How can a fan have any evidences?
Even police can't find the evidence in this case.
I can suspect based on interest. Who will profit and who will lose from this situation.
Stop wasting my time.

I'm sure you convinced everybody with this.

Is that the best response you can make?
The goal isn't to convince anybody.
Just to stand up against injustice and point out the hypocrisy.

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

I understand now why cyclingnews disabled comments. They can really cloud your judgement. Initially I thought the punishment was way too harsh, but after reading the lunacy of the "absolutely impartial" in-no-way-Porte-fans I kind of wished they had enforced this rule:

2.3.012
All riders may render each other such minor services as lending or exchanging food,
drink, spanners or accessories.
The lending or exchanging of tubular tyres or bicycles and waiting for a rider who has
been dropped or involved in an accident shall be permitted only amongst riders of the
same team. The pushing of one rider by another shall in all cases be forbidden, on pain of disqualification.

But the comments in the forum are eloquent and completely sane...

At least when you go to the forum you've intentionally gone down the rabbit-hole. Still, it's quite a tumble, ain't it?

lol! Yes it is indeed!

 

[Eshnar]

Re: Re:

Is that the best response you can make?
The goal isn't to convince anybody.
Just to stand up against injustice and point out the hypocrisy.

I already told you that I don't see why RCS would want to get rid of one of the stars of their show.
I already told you that If they wanted to make "their" rider win they could have very easily set up a better route for him.
I already told you that last year Quintana wasn't thrown out of the Giro, despite Aru being on the bad side of the Stelvio gate.
You had not addressed any of those points. You are just pointing out that you have no arguments besides your assumptions.

 

[arvc40]

Re:

I'm of the view that "them's the breaks". It's part of GT racing, as is falling off, getting sick, having a crap day, suddenly getting asthma etc etc If Porte has anything about him, this will make the race. He can make the time up on Aru in the TT and, if Contador suffers discomfort as a result of his own mis-hap, maybe him too. Perhaps it will allow a surprise package to jump from the also rans. At the end of the day, at least it will force him onto the attack, whereas he might have taken time on his rivals in the TT and, with typical SKY efficiency, defended to the finish.

I'd be interested to know how many forum members knew of this rule.

Agreed ................

I know you don't help other riders with mechanical problems. You get on with your own job looking after your own Team

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

And do you have evidence that they didn't push?
I know you're huge Giro fan, but give me a brake.
This has nothing to do with sportsmanship.

The claim is yours, you should have sth to support it.If you don't, you can't really complain if it just seems bs.

That's your classic spin... asking for evidence. How can a fan have any evidences?
Even police can't find the evidence in this case.
I can suspect based on interest. Who will profit and who will lose from this situation.
Stop wasting my time.

I'm sure you convinced everybody with this.

Is that the best response you can make?
The goal isn't to convince anybody.
Just to stand up against injustice and point out the hypocrisy.

Where's the injustice in somebody breaking a rule and being given the punishment set aside for breaking that rule?

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

Injustice mirrored in inconsistency of applying the rules and malevolent interpretations that directly collide with the fair-play spirit of the sport.

 

[rhubroma]

Re:

I'm of the view that "them's the breaks". It's part of GT racing, as is falling off, getting sick, having a crap day, suddenly getting asthma etc etc If Porte has anything about him, this will make the race. He can make the time up on Aru in the TT and, if Contador suffers discomfort as a result of his own mis-hap, maybe him too. Perhaps it will allow a surprise package to jump from the also rans. At the end of the day, at least it will force him onto the attack, whereas he might have taken time on his rivals in the TT and, with typical SKY efficiency, defended to the finish.

I'd be interested to know how many forum members knew of this rule.

My sentiments exactly, but as far as the last question goes: totally irrelevant. The investing pro team, on the other hand, should know the rules. Why doesn't the UCI hold a course, with diploma to boot?

 

[NairoQ]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

At least it won't happen again, and thát is a good thing. Sucks for Porte, but yeah... Rules.

 

[del1962]

I dont think it is an injustice but there is a lack of discretion that could have been applied, it is obvious the riders involved where not aware of the rule and a 200 fine and slap on the wrists could have been applied.

 

[Jancouver]

This is funny. Almost 400 posts on one illegal wheel change. All the Aussies and SKY fans are furious and the rest are OK or even happy about the slap.

Rules are rules, but regardless, he will lose another 10+ minutes along the way so these 2min are pretty irrelevant.

I just hope that Porte can show some class and start working for the real team-leader Konig right away

 

[T-Nielsen]

Re: Re:

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

Injustice mirrored in inconsistency of applying the rules and malevolent interpretations that directly collide with the fair-play spirit of the sport.

The only exampel I know of a rider getting another teams wheel resulted in the same penalty. I do not se the inconsistencies.

Having a rule keeping teams from directly helping each other is very important. If not you risk basically having 18 man teams. I agree in cases like this it seems excessive but it did give Port an "unfair" advantage.

Oh and what did you mean with my other account?

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

Injustice mirrored in inconsistency of applying the rules and malevolent interpretations that directly collide with the fair-play spirit of the sport.

Inconsistency? It's been applied again and again. Not to riders you care about, evidently, but as applies to the whole of the peloton it would've been far more inconsistent not to do carry out the punishment.
Malevolent interpretations? Thats about as clear-cut as intepretations can get. No much "interpreting" needed.
Fair-play spirit of the sport? Of cycling? You've lost me completely.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

Combed through 13 pages. The synopsis as to why Porte should NOT have been penalized is because:

1) Sky doesn't travel with an in-car lawyer to warn them of any rules violations, thereby making it OK for them to break any rule they are "unfamiliar" with.
2) Plot by evil Italians and Spaniards (and Germans, and French, and Canadians) in the race jury.
3) Giro sucks, not an ASO-TdF clone.

That about sums it up. Pacifiers all around for all that posted drivel comparable to the above.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

This is funny. Almost 400 posts on one illegal wheel change. All the Aussies and SKY fans are furious and the rest are OK or even happy about the slap.

Rules are rules, but regardless, he will lose another 10+ minutes along the way so these 2min are pretty irrelevant.

I just hope that Porte can show some class and start working for the real team-leader Konig right away

Finally, a voice of reason!

 

[goggalor]

“I hope they [Sky] reflect on this matter and they realise that there has been no injustice here: a rule that has existed for a long time was applied to an incident in the race. I hope that when things calm down later this evening they’ll realise that the rule had to be applied.”

Well put by race director Mauro Vegni. There really should be no controversy here.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

What's baffling for me is that reading Twitter is pretty clear most pros have no idea of what the rules of their sport say.

No pro is familiar with all of the UCIs regulations. Not most pros aren't. No pro is. For that matter, the UCI's in house lawyers won't be familiar with all of them, without going to the written rules to check.

This.

Pros are paid to ride their bikes - not be lawyers. The team have people who know rules. Its the same in most professional sports.

"Gee Mr. Umpire, I didn't know the Vaseline in my glove, and the file in my pocket were illegal, I just didn't like my grip on the ball. You should probably go talk to my manager, I'm just paid to pitch."

Ball tampering is one of the most famous ways to deliberately cheat in cricket, and so a rather silly comparison. However there are aspects of the laws of cricket that many players won't understand (for instance, how to be run out before the ball is bowled) despite the fact that the Laws of cricket are just 60 odd pages long.

Nobody has yet to find a pro, an ex pro or a DS saying that they knew the rule involved here. Presumably Sicard and Shpilevsky at least must have found out about it, since they've been punished for the same offence in the past.

 

[Boardslide]

Re: Re:

The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

Yes, where were Porte's teammates when he had the mechanical? Maybe they were so busy saving themselves for the 3rd week mountains they left Porte hopelessly exposed on what should have been a relatively easy day. Simon Clarke's wheel should not have been necessary. It inexcusable on Sky's part. Sadly I don't think the officials had any choice but to apply the 2 minute penalty.

Apparently Clarke arrived & started changing the wheel before any Sky rider got back and so waited for him to finish. In answer to your other question they were towards the front of the peloton with Viviani

 

[MacRoadie]

Re: Re:

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. I don't expect riders to know all of the rules of cycling but I do expect a DS to do so and for both to know at least the basics. Everyone and his dog knows the last 3 klik rule and the fact that you can't take a wheel from another team is pretty freaking basic as well

A DS is just an old rider. He will know more of the rules than most current riders, but he will not know all of the hundreds of pages of regulations off the top of his head..

Actually, it's a whopping 169 pages, about 75% of which applies to stuff a Pro Tour team and rider need zero knowledge of:

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rulesandregulation/16/82/39/2-ROA-20150205-E_English.pdf

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

And the rest of us keep asking what injustice? He broke the rule. It is in my oppinion a good but to inflexible rule, but a rule none the less.

Injustice mirrored in inconsistency of applying the rules and malevolent interpretations that directly collide with the fair-play spirit of the sport.

The only exampel I know of a rider getting another teams wheel resulted in the same penalty. I do not se the inconsistencies.

Having a rule keeping teams from directly helping each other is very important. If not you risk basically having 18 man teams. I agree in cases like this it seems excessive but it did give Port an "unfair" advantage.

Whether it has given him "unfair" advantage we can't really tell.
The fact is that he's out of the GC battle. The decision was just a final nail in his coffin. That's unfair.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

The fact is that he's out of the GC battle. The decision was just a final nail in his coffin. That's unfair.

I suppose it might be unfair on a cosmic scale - although the universe is vast and uncaring, so I don't know about that either.

But as rule enforcement? Hell no. Totally fair. 100% clear-cut case.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

Anyone who says Porte (or Clarke, or Sky or Brailsford) "should have known" the rules is speaking from a position of complete ignorance of the scale and complexity of the UCI's regulations and does not understand that not one rider in the peloton knows them all. Or, given that this has been pointed out repeatedly, the alternative is that people making that argument are being actively disingenuous.

Well that rule is pretty clear, sanction is pretty clear, there;s nothing shady or gray about this rule. If Sir Dave Brailsford and his team Sky didn't know about this one specifically, then they are bunch of amateurs and they deserve this penalty completely!

No matter how many times you repeat the same stupidity, it will not become less stupid. Once more: not one rider in the pro peloton knows all of the UCI's regulations. If not knowing every regulation makes you an amateur, there is not one single professional rider in the sport.

This is not like learning the rules to Monopoly before you play.

This might come as a shock, but for most trades in this world, you have to know the rules of your trade and abide by them. If you violate them, you risk being sanctioned. No court in this world (and i mean the real world) will let you off the hook by pleading ignorance of the law

You are entirely correct that a criminal court will not, in most circumstances, allow ignorance of the law to act as a defence. This is not because any judge is stupid enough to imagine that everyone in front of him or her is, should be or could be familiar with every law. And that includes not only the accused but also the prosecution and defence lawyers.

Cyclists are not expected to know all of the rules and regulations of their trade, whatever may or may not be the case in some other profession. And this is just as well, because not one single one of them does.

Strangely the lack of familiarity with the law by riders and management is usually dependent upon if you are the one who has broken the law. Had the same incident happened by say Aru or Contador I am of the belief that Brailsford would quickly have cried bloody murder to race officials.