Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[The Hitch]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

This would make sense if they actually applied their rules regularly, since well it's in the rule book can't complain really (though I wonder actually how many riders knew of this rule).

But 95% of the time they ignore their own rules so I don't know WTF is going on here, absolutely bizzare.

Anyways lol it seems like the last 5 gt's in a row have been ruined because of some stupid issue. Way to kill the best GT in the past 20 years bois ... well done.

You missed 2010?

 

[TMP402]

It's a good job I'm not in charge of Sky because I'd have had a good mind to withdraw everyone but the sprint team if I was.

 

[metaCYCLE]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

The inexcusable chauvinistic take on this matter by some posters is baffling.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

il Giro
the race where GC is decided by a race jury selectively applying rules that fit their protegees

Like last year, when they kicked out Quintana for overtaking a red flag.

As I said earlier the UCI only enforce a very small percentage of their rules. There needs to be some sort of consistency or it looks a bit odd when it screws over some riders but not others.

That sums the UCI up very nicely. Sometimes there is no good answer. This is not one of those times.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

That's the reason for it. In a stage like today's it mattered little (but why wasn't there a Sky bike or rider to hand to change?) so 2' penalty seems overkill when he's already lost time by bad luck, but say that situation plays out in a mountain stage when a rider who is losing time receives mechanical assistance from another team, and is then able to limit their losses and defend a GC lead.

So when Nieve paced Contador up Ventoux in 2013, they should have got a 2 minute penalty as well, right?

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

That's the reason for it. In a stage like today's it mattered little (but why wasn't there a Sky bike or rider to hand to change?) so 2' penalty seems overkill when he's already lost time by bad luck, but say that situation plays out in a mountain stage when a rider who is losing time receives mechanical assistance from another team, and is then able to limit their losses and defend a GC lead.

Yeah the whole incident makes SKY look a bit amateurish. Doesn't change the fact that, Richie's 2 minute time penalty has effectively killed all excitement in this Giro

 

[The Hitch]

The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

 

[sir fly]

Re:

The Hitch, I know he still can reach the podium, but this penalty must have affected his motivation.

After losing almost three minutes, you become demoralized.

And the podium isn't exactly what they've come for. Especially if it becomes a target after less than a half of the race.

 

[richwagmn]

Re: Re:

[quote="
Just ask, why weren't his teammates there? If they were, we wouldn't be having this discussion.[/quote]

That's the real question isn't it? Failure on the part of team sky for sure. You have a GC contendor with a flat and no one around to help? A big giant WTF?

 

[mrhender]

Re:

The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

They didn't make things easier by splitting the team in two...

One group for Viviani -and one for Porte...

Makes things more diffucult when issues arise...

So much for the all-in on Porte to win the Giro...

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

That's the reason for it.

Is that the reason for it ? If it is that is quite frankly a terrible rule. You don't get an advantage from getting a puncture and a free wheel. It's still a net disadvantage. Why you would punish that is beyond me.

As mentioned above, teams can double in size by agreeing to support each other. And then what's left? One or two big blocks of riders and maybe a couple of outliers.

Hence why the rules should be applied when it's being abused and overlooked when it's not, like the UCI do with every other rule ... all the time ...

Or at least just be consistent. Enforce all the time or don't.

I mean who do you think is abusing the rules more: Quintana overtaking neutralisation flags on a descent to gain time or Porte getting a wheel from another team because of a puncture in order not to lose time ?

Seems like common sense to me.

 

[Miburo]

There's an intention behind every rule. Just like there's with every law.

Just like a judge does every day in court, he interprets the law. Because often the lawmaker didn't do a good job in making clear what the intent and the scope of the law is.

Is this rule up for interpretation?

Yea i think it is. It's intent is obviously to stop teams uniting. As LS pointed it out very well, it's one of the only things they can really do.

But what is the advantage Porte gained? Not much a few sec, the circumstances of the race considered and knowing Porte already lost 47 sec I consider that as enough of a punishment.

It all depends on the situation. I don't think a penalty was necessary here.

As i mentioned already, the only good thing here is that it'll never happen again at least.

 

[Carols]

Re:

The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

This is the crux of the matter. Had the Sky teammates been there and the Sky car, none of this would have happened and there would be no outrage because OGE wouldn't have been needed!

Brailfraud should be hanging his head in shame.....

 

[mrhender]

Brailsford reacts:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brailsford-on-portes-wheel-change-its-a-shame-people-cant-see-sense

Team Sky's Principal Dave Brailsford has shown a mixture of disappointment and resolve to continue fighting for the maglia rosa after his leader for the Giro d'ItaliaRichie Porte was handed a two-minute penalty for “non-regulation assistance to a rider of another team” during stage 10.

Porte received the penalty after puncturing late on the stage to Forli and getting a front wheel from Orica-GreenEdge rider Simon Clarke. Porte lost 47 seconds as he fought, unsuccessfully, to get back to the bunch and then later in the evening he was docked a further two minutes. He is now 12th on GC, 3:09 back on Alberto Contador (Tinkoff-Saxo).

Both Brailsford and sports director Dario Cioni came to the Giro d’Italia headquarters in Forli in the evening, leaving with the confirmation of the penalty.

Brailsford argued to Cyclingnews that Porte’s case had been treated according to UCI regulations but that given the idea of fair play had been behind the wheel change, the "spirit of the law" had not been recognised.

“It just goes to show you that you can either live by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law,” Brailsford said, talking calmly as he headed for his team car.

“Most people would accept that that was one of the most interesting, instinctive moments of fair play we’ve seen in sport for a long time, particularly in our sport, which has been a bit blighted by issues of unfair play.

“However, there’s a lesson in there, isn’t there? That [if] it’s the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law then that’s that. We’ll keep fighting and hope we don’t get another puncture and just take it on the chin, I guess.”

Concerning Clarke’s decision to help Porte out itself, Brailsford argued that “It’s a shame that people can’t see the sense of it, really most people will watch that and most people will think that actually it’s a fair gesture, he didn’t gain any unfair advantage.

“Ultimately we live to fight another day. But I think we’ll sleep on it and see what happens tomorrow.”

 

[Netserk]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

The rules are very clear regarding this. Porte's fault for not being aware of it (if he was aware I doubt he would have let everyone know what happened).

I don't think you can fault the commission for their decision, when it's so blatant that the rule has been violated. Imagine if they did nothing. That would be outrageous.

If you think it's a BS rule, blame the rule-makers, not the enforcers.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I wonder if the riders involved knew this rule existed? It seems to be a rather odd and obscure one, but still, not knowing about a rule cannot be an excuse... in that sense I kinda feel like this is on the riders or on the teams for not making sure the riders know the rules... on the other hand there are so many rules set by the UCI that it becomes almost impossible to remember them all, especially when you have a puncture with 7k to go in the Giro and your adrenaline starts pumping... the last thing you'll be thinking about at that moment is article 12.6, subsection 4, paragrapg 2 "wheel changes from other teams"...

What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Some teams might have an excuse.

Sky has 0 excuse. If marginal gains actually did exist and was not an amateur piece of fiction invented by Brailsford to pray on people of low intelligence, then devoting resources to making sure all their riders, especially their gt leaders, knew the rules better than anyone else in the peloton, should have been one of the first marginal gains attempted.

 

[Jack_89]

Re:

The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

You are right, is it possible none knows this rule?! It's a joke?. Even for me it's a farce this rule but there is and must be respected.
it's quite simple.to.understand .

 

[Metabolol]

Re:

I'd rather have him penalized for wheelsucking the entire first week.

What's the chance that he was faking the puncture? He has not looked that good so far. It's the perfect excuse when you are about to get your ass kicked by Astana and Alberto.

I don't know about faking a puncture but he had problems hanging on to his teammates wheels as they tried to drag him back up to the peloton.

 

[sir fly]

It would be interesting to learn how often does this situation happen and how often the rule is enforced.
If the ratio is less than 2/3, we can speak about injustice.

 

[deValtos]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

If you think it's a BS rule, blame the rule-makers, not the enforcers.

Can you blame the enforcers when they choose what rules to enforce though ?

Like I said most of the time they just ignore the rules.

So when they do randomly enforce a rule you think there should be a good reason for it.

I do blame enforcers for thinking Quintanas attack past neutralisation flags was not an issue but this is.

 

[Cookster15]

Re:

The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

Yes, where were Porte's teammates when he had the mechanical? Maybe they were so busy saving themselves for the 3rd week mountains they left Porte hopelessly exposed on what should have been a relatively easy day. Simon Clarke's wheel should not have been necessary. It inexcusable on Sky's part. Sadly I don't think the officials had any choice but to apply the 2 minute penalty.

 

[JRanton]

Re:

Better get a 2-minute penalty than lose 5 waiting for another bicycle.

Not the end of the world.

In the photo showing Clarke giving Porte a wheel there is a Sky rider in the photo. Sky really *** up, that is clear. Eisel, the ''incredible road captain'' strikes again.

 

[mrhender]

Surely they were unaware of the rule, or thought it wouldn't be enforced..

 

[Miburo]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

The rules are very clear regarding this. Porte's fault for not being aware of it (if he was aware I doubt he would have let everyone know what happened).

I don't think you can fault the commission for their decision, when it's so blatant that the rule has been violated. Imagine if they did nothing. That would be outrageous.

If you think it's a BS rule, blame the rule-makers, not the enforcers.

Lawmaker often do a terrible job, that's why courts excist.

Interpret the law. I assume that's what the jury does to. Prob not lol

The least they can do is limit his total loss to 2 min, that's a rather fair ruling.

And once again the intent of the rule is that teams won't get an advantage by working together. His advantage was nothing at all, like 2 sec.

And it was in the rush of the moment. Not something planned orso.

There are a lot of circumstance to keep in mind.

 

[rainman]

I don't get why Clarke stopped to help Porte. There were still 5k's to go, surely Clarke should have been looking out for his own team mates? Both Clarke and Porte behaved like clowns today, don't tell me they didn't know about the rule, if they didn't they're as dumb as each other.
Having said that I'm surprised the UCI took such a draconian line, surely there was room for some discretion in this case. None of the other favorites want to win like this, the peloton should stage a 2min 47second sit down at the start tomorow.
From the way he's been riding I dont think Porte had a chance anyway, but this sucks.