Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[Metabolol]

Re: Re:

It is unfortunate for the drama of the race but the rule is absolutely a good one and if it is there it should be enforced. Perhaps i am saying that as someone from a small country whose riders would be less likely to get nationalistic assistance themselves. Overt assistance like that has to be punished because, as others have said, teams could easily effectively become 18 in size rather than 9.

Porte and the Sky Team will hopefully accept with good grace that they are responsible for their own downfall. This is the team that prides itself on having greater attention to detail than all others, yet they were either ignorant of this rule or arrogant enough not to care.

On the road with the race at a really high pace, rules is something that gets forgotten sometimes. Without a doubt, the race rules of the UCI are lengthy and complex.

Tough breaks. It will be interesting to see if he's gifted time.

No way will he be gifted even a second. I can't see that happening. Astana and Tinkoff-Saxo would never do that. It would also make a farce of the whole race.

The rule exists for a reason and there is no doubt that Porte should be penalized. It's important that the rules are consistently enforced though.

 

[Carols]

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OMG There was a Sky rider there and he just watched.....no one to blame but themselves. I feel sorry for Porte but this is truly a giant Sky Fail!

 

[Jagartrott]

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I don't get why Clarke stopped to help Porte. There were still 5k's to go, surely Clarke should have been looking out for his own team mates?

This, pretty much.

 

[Velolover2]

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The Hitch, I know he still can reach the podium, but this penalty must have affected his motivation.

After losing almost three minutes, you become demoralized.

And the podium isn't exactly what they've come for. Especially if it becomes a target after less than a half of the race.

Still hope that Uran can do something in the TT. Seeing Cataldo on the final podium would be quite anti-climatic if that is going to happen.

 

[Roude Leiw]

Re:

I mean, it's in the rules, there's a clear precedent, and people are somehow complaining that it's unfair or that the Italians are out to get an Italian winner? Get a grip.

Thank you, seriously, i mean what are rules for? OGE think they are some kind of Aussie national team?

 

[Publicus]

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The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

Yes, where were Porte's teammates when he had the mechanical? Maybe they were so busy saving themselves for the 3rd week mountains they left Porte hopelessly exposed on what should have been a relatively easy day. Simon Clarke's wheel should not have been necessary. It inexcusable on Sky's part. Sadly I don't think the officials had any choice but to apply the 2 minute penalty.

I think one was nearby and watched Gerrans give Porte his wheel....

EDIT: I found this part interesting

Vegni dismissed the idea that other teams had alerted the commissaires to the infraction, pointing out that images of the wheel change were circulating on the internet almost as soon as the stage had finished.

So basically Graham Watson's twitter post set off this firestorm. Gerrans and Porte were complicit in their own undoing.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

[quote="Libertine Seguros
Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?[/quote]

Probably not, but some friend or training partner might have, or one of the rider's Contador has gifted stages to in the past.

How is this situation meaningfully different from Oss leading out Sagan the other day?

 

[PremierAndrew]

They've got to be consistent though. Surely Nieve (Euskatel) pacing Contador (Tinkoff) up Ventoux in 2013 is a much worse example of this UCI rule, yet no action was taken there. Numerous examples of this, that's just one that comes to mind. I would love to see the UCI be consistent with it, but you can't just enforce it when mechanicals take place and then not enforce it in open racing when it's making it genuinely unfair

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

The Hitch, I know he still can reach the podium, but this penalty must have affected his motivation.

After losing almost three minutes, you become demoralized.

2011 Contador and Samu lost a lot of time in a crash, and both became the most attacking riders in the race. I remember Valverde going very strong for pride even after losing 10 minutes in 2013. Landis of course was down 5 mins and Pereiro something like 30 at different stages of the TDF in 2006. Basso was 12 minutes down on Arroyo.

The one advantage of a sport like cycling which is all about how much pain you take and energy you have, is there is very little room to choke. You don't need to stand still, breathe, think about the moment, try and get the technique correct. You simply ride, as fast as you can and see where that gets you. If you are angry, even better.

 

[Christian]

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What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

That's the reason for it. In a stage like today's it mattered little (but why wasn't there a Sky bike or rider to hand to change?) so 2' penalty seems overkill when he's already lost time by bad luck, but say that situation plays out in a mountain stage when a rider who is losing time receives mechanical assistance from another team, and is then able to limit their losses and defend a GC lead.

So when Nieve paced Contador up Ventoux in 2013, they should have got a 2 minute penalty as well, right?

True, Contador used to pull this shït all the time with Euskaltel

 

[mrhender]

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OMG There was a Sky rider there and he just watched.....no one to blame but themselves. I feel sorry for Porte but this is truly a giant Sky Fail!

I think there is actually at least two Sky riders watching.. If you see the extra wheel on the right there is no explanation to that being other then a Sky man..

Maybe a third one taking the photo

Just to underline the support they have in the peloton..

#massivebackfire

 

[Lexman]

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It would be interesting to learn how often does this situation happen and how often the rule is enforced.
If the ratio is less than 2/3, we can speak about injustice.

indeed how many times must this have happened already without any witnesses, in for example Paris-Roubaix...

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

OMG There was a Sky rider there and he just watched.....no one to blame but themselves. I feel sorry for Porte but this is truly a giant Sky Fail!

I suppose Sky felt they needed at least two riders - one to sacrifice his wheel and another to tow Porte back to the tail of the peloton. It seems Sky panicked. But normally when a GC team leader has a mechanical the whole team would stop. Why was there just one Sky rider around to help Porte?

 

[SafeBet]

Re: Re:

The funniest thing about this is it once again shows how disorganized Team Sky is. Its laughable that this is the team that claims to be the most organized, advanced, etc in the peloton.

RAI had footage of it too.
Yes, where were Porte's teammates when he had the mechanical? Maybe they were so busy saving themselves for the 3rd week mountains they left Porte hopelessly exposed on what should have been a relatively easy day. Simon Clarke's wheel should not have been necessary. It inexcusable on Sky's part. Sadly I don't think the officials had any choice but to apply the 2 minute penalty.

I think one was nearby and watched Gerrans give Porte his wheel....

EDIT: I found this part interesting

Vegni dismissed the idea that other teams had alerted the commissaires to the infraction, pointing out that images of the wheel change were circulating on the internet almost as soon as the stage had finished.

So basically Graham Watson's twitter post set off this firestorm. Gerrans and Porte were complicit in their own undoing.

 

[arvc40]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

There is no way you should be getting a wheel from another Team car. It is no coincidence that it was Orica helping him either. When it comes to a situation like this it should be your own Team and back up staff sorting the problem out.

I'm dissapointed that Sky let it happen !.

 

[The_Cheech]

If this rule were randomly enforced, I would be in favor of not penalizing Porte. If it isn't, he has no choice but to live and die by the sword.

I know it's painfull to see 6 months of training go down the drain in 20 seconds, but such is life of a profesional cyclist.

 

[LeindersGains]

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Surely they were unaware of the rule, or thought it wouldn't be enforced..

Lol what a bunch of clowns. Like how Brailsford is trying to milk it as some kind of national romantic story of true compatriots.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

[quote="Libertine Seguros
Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

Probably not, but some friend or training partner might have, or one of the rider's Contador has gifted stages to in the past.

How is this situation meaningfully different from Oss leading out Sagan the other day?[/quote]

It is different obviously, there's a rule against it, rider like Richie Porte should of known that, and team like Sky.

 

[Tank Engine]

Really bad luck for Porte to get a puncture at such a point in the stage, but a) where were his teammates?, b) why did Sky not know the rules? OK, you could argue that it's sportsmanship on the part of Clarke, so you should enforce the spirit of the rules rather than the letter. But the letter of the rules are clear and not enforcing in such a case will cause a precedent for other forms of help, which can be "interpreted as sportmanship", but favour high profile/influential riders.

 

[Christian]

Re: Re:

I wonder if the riders involved knew this rule existed? It seems to be a rather odd and obscure one, but still, not knowing about a rule cannot be an excuse... in that sense I kinda feel like this is on the riders or on the teams for not making sure the riders know the rules... on the other hand there are so many rules set by the UCI that it becomes almost impossible to remember them all, especially when you have a puncture with 7k to go in the Giro and your adrenaline starts pumping... the last thing you'll be thinking about at that moment is article 12.6, subsection 4, paragrapg 2 "wheel changes from other teams"...

What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Some teams might have an excuse.

Sky has 0 excuse. If marginal gains actually did exist and was not an amateur piece of fiction invented by Brailsford to pray on people of low intelligence, then devoting resources to making sure all their riders, especially their gt leaders, knew the rules better than anyone else in the peloton, should have been one of the first marginal gains attempted.

Fully agree - if marginal gains is your main philosophy, then knowing the rules should be the first marginal gain.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

They've got to be consistent though. Surely Nieve (Euskatel) pacing Contador (Tinkoff) up Ventoux in 2013 is a much worse example of this UCI rule, yet no action was taken there. Numerous examples of this, that's just one that comes to mind. I would love to see the UCI be consistent with it, but you can't just enforce it when mechanicals take place and then not enforce it in open racing when it's making it genuinely unfair

I'd sooner penalize Movistar for the horror show that was stage 9 when they had Froome and to some extent Contador isolated and chose to ride 90k as if the stage was neutralized. ugh. If ever there was a need for a rule to penalize riders it was there.

As for Contador and Nieve, lol, penalize them both then. Who on earth cares if Contador gets penalized on Ventoux, when he is down 5 minutes on gc with 1 week to go and can't even hold the wheel of several in race domestiques?

 

[metaCYCLE]

Re: Re:

[quote="Libertine Seguros
Would Clarke have stopped and given his wheel to Contador or Aru?

Probably not, but some friend or training partner might have, or one of the rider's Contador has gifted stages to in the past.

How is this situation meaningfully different from Oss leading out Sagan the other day?

It is different obviously, there's a rule against it, rider like Richie Porte should of known that, and team like Sky.

Just to be pedantic: there aren't that many...

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

I wonder if the riders involved knew this rule existed? It seems to be a rather odd and obscure one, but still, not knowing about a rule cannot be an excuse... in that sense I kinda feel like this is on the riders or on the teams for not making sure the riders know the rules... on the other hand there are so many rules set by the UCI that it becomes almost impossible to remember them all, especially when you have a puncture with 7k to go in the Giro and your adrenaline starts pumping... the last thing you'll be thinking about at that moment is article 12.6, subsection 4, paragrapg 2 "wheel changes from other teams"...

What I would be interested to know though, is: why is this a rule? What is the reasoning behind it? To prevent several teams "ganging up" and thus creating unfair advantages or maybe even safety concerns (different material on different teams)?

Some teams might have an excuse.

Sky has 0 excuse. If marginal gains actually did exist and was not an amateur piece of fiction invented by Brailsford to pray on people of low intelligence, then devoting resources to making sure all their riders, especially their gt leaders, knew the rules better than anyone else in the peloton, should have been one of the first marginal gains attempted.

Fully agree - if marginal gains is your main philosophy, then knowing the rules should be the first marginal gain.

As much as Sky clearly messed up, I wouldn't blame them for not expecting to be punished considering the fact that this hardly ever gets punished at World Tour level

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

How is this situation meaningfully different from Oss leading out Sagan the other day?

Plausible deniability.

Same with all the examples people are bringing up of random riders clearly (but unverifiably) helping out a theoretical rival.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

I suppose Sky felt they needed at least two riders - one to sacrifice his wheel and another to tow Porte back to the tail of the peloton. It seems Sky panicked. But normally when a GC team leader has a mechanical the whole team would stop. Why was there just one Sky rider around to help Porte?

Because the team were divided in two...

One two support Porte and one for Viviani..

They were also positioned differently...

They gambled for a stage win, and it cost them X100

and it was a bit more then one though..