Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

Does anyone have an example in a WT race of someone from a different team giving their wheel to a rider on a different team where the rule was NOT enforced? The rule is specifically about equipment, not pacing someone or giving them food/drinks. It is giving them equipment.

I wish people would stop comparing apples to oranges, it just clouds the issue.

He was penalised for “non-regulation assistance to a rider of another team” by strict interpretation of that Valverde should of won the Vuelta in 2012.

Why?

Because they're looking at the wording of the offence, not the wording of the rule it applies to.

Ekhm:
3.3. Rider taking off the mandatory helmet ; disqualified and 100 ; disqualified and 50

Seriously, some rules are obviously not applied despite the wording being really clear. No subsections there, etc.
Those rules (Porte 2', Contador DSQ) should not be applied as long as there was no intention of breaking the rule

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

I suppose Sky felt they needed at least two riders - one to sacrifice his wheel and another to tow Porte back to the tail of the peloton. It seems Sky panicked. But normally when a GC team leader has a mechanical the whole team would stop. Why was there just one Sky rider around to help Porte?

Because the team were divided in two...

One two support Porte and one for Viviani..

They were also positioned differently...

They gambled for a stage win, and it cost them X100

and it was a bit more then one though..

You may well be right - but that is also a huge fail on Sky's part. Nobody will remember a Giro stage win by Viviani in a year or two. The publicity from a Giro podium and possibly competing for the Pink Jersey in Milan beats that hands down. And half the team should mean 4 riders to stop to support Porte. Even if there was another off camera looking on, where were the other 2 team mates?

Poor Richie, I hope he can do an awesome TT to at least put him back with good chance of podium.

Publicity from doing a telekom 97 tour with Porte and Viviani is pretty good too.

Sure. But Viviani doesn't strike me as the next Erik Zabel. This will be a real test of Porte's mental toughness. It would be easy to get &^%$'d off with his team and let that affect his performance. Lets hope he can use to motivate himself to an even better performance over the rest of the Giro - starting with stage 14.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

[quote="Mr.White

It is different obviously, there's a rule against it, rider like Richie Porte should of known that, and team like Sky.[/quote]

Porte is one of my least favourite members of one of my least favourite teams, but to be blunt I think there's a lot of unseemly gloating going on in this thread. Porte and Clarke are professional athletes, not lawyers. It is not remotely surprising that neither were aware of an obscure, rarely used, rule inamongst a vast collection of obscure, rarely relevant, UCI regulations. No rider knows and understands all of those regulations, on Sky or on any other team and nobody would suggest that any rider or team they actually like should be expected to.

Here one rider made a sporting gesture to help another, presumably a friend, who was going to lose time on a meaningless sprint stage because of an unlucky puncture. That was, it turns out, clearly against the rules. It's equally clear that neither understood that it was against the rules - and neither did the official Giro twitter account for that matter. Instead of taking a lot of the intrigue out of the GC race, the commissaires should use some common sense.Issue a fine or perhaps a few seconds penalty to balance out any advantage Porte received from taking the wrong rider's wheel. Accompany the fine or penalty with a sternly worded reminder of the rules and a threat to disqualify anyone who does it again. Then move on with no harm done to the race. I say this as someone who would much prefer to see Aru etc win.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Re:

Can someone tell me who SkyTears is?

Just what his name says.

 

[SafeBet]

What's baffling for me is that reading Twitter is pretty clear most pros have no idea of what the rules of their sport say.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

Those rules (Porte 2', Contador DSQ) should not be applied as long as there was no intention of breaking the rule

Several people are talking about "the spirit of the law". What was that rule intended to prevent, if not exactly what happened today?

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

A Danish TV reporter talked to a Sky DS immediately after the stage (and before we knew of the two minute penalty). The Sky DS said the stage went according to Sky's plan. There were no issues. Sky had half their team with Viviani in order to get the stage win in case the breakaway got caught.

I don't know why so many are blaiming all the other teams, or the UCI, or the Jury for the outcome of this incident. When Sky don't care for their GC rider - why should anyone else? The 2 minute penalty is harsh and terrible for the race. But this is still a pretty light incident compared to what we've seen happen over the years when GT podium favourites crash out (Contador, Froome in TdF 2014, for instance. Not to mention Ocana or Beloki and many other greats in the past). Contador also lost 1:20 in stage 1 of the 2011 Tour because he was caught behind a crash 8 km from the finish (and Contador was particularly unlucky because his rivals were caught behind another crash which, however, happened within the 3 km zone, and therefore didn't give them any time deficits! Bertie crossed the finish line before Andy on stage 1 but still lost 1:14 to him!). Such things happens and are terrible for the race.

But hopefully today's result will force Porte to attack a bit earlier on the hilly or mountain stages. So this can still be a great giro - even for Porte. And his attacks don't have to be as spectacular as Andy's or Alberto's in the 2011 Tour in order to make this a great giro

Because they don't really have a terribly deep understanding of racing or race tactics. And many are just lashing out because the guy they were rooting for took it on the chin. First with bad luck, then stupidity and lack of attention to detail.

 

[damian13ster]

Re: Re:

Those rules (Porte 2', Contador DSQ) should not be applied as long as there was no intention of breaking the rule

Several people are talking about "the spirit of the law". What was that rule intended to prevent, if not exactly what happened today?

What was the rule to not take off the helmet during the race supposed to prevent other than taking off the helmet during the race?

Rules are rules, but either you enforce all of them, no matter how stupid they are or what rider breaks them or you use common sense

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

They've got to be consistent though. Surely Nieve (Euskatel) pacing Contador (Tinkoff) up Ventoux in 2013 is a much worse example of this UCI rule, yet no action was taken there. Numerous examples of this, that's just one that comes to mind. I would love to see the UCI be consistent with it, but you can't just enforce it when mechanicals take place and then not enforce it in open racing when it's making it genuinely unfair

Nieve pacing Contador is perfectly allowed, there's no violation of rules. On the other hand mechanical help is strictly forbidden, Porte should of known that, Clarke should of known, and Brailsford should of known. They got to blame only themselves, one of the most stupid mistakes I have seen in a while...

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

Those rules (Porte 2', Contador DSQ) should not be applied as long as there was no intention of breaking the rule

Several people are talking about "the spirit of the law". What was that rule intended to prevent, if not exactly what happened today?

Those people are parroting what Brailsford just spewed out in a press conference. Sky clearly had no idea about the rule and can't cop to being clueless. More of Sky's vaunted attention to detail on display.

Knowing the rules of the sport you're participating in is marginal gain #1.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Re:

Does anyone have an example in a WT race of someone from a different team giving their wheel to a rider on a different team where the rule was NOT enforced? The rule is specifically about equipment, not pacing someone or giving them food/drinks. It is giving them equipment.

I wish people would stop comparing apples to oranges, it just clouds the issue.

This...........

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

What's baffling for me is that reading Twitter is pretty clear most pros have no idea of what the rules of their sport say.

No pro is familiar with all of the UCIs regulations. Not most pros aren't. No pro is. For that matter, the UCI's in house lawyers won't be familiar with all of them, without going to the written rules to check.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Those rules (Porte 2', Contador DSQ) should not be applied as long as there was no intention of breaking the rule

Several people are talking about "the spirit of the law". What was that rule intended to prevent, if not exactly what happened today?

I get why it's a rule there just needs to be some common sense applied. Situation like today a fine and a reprimand is probably more appropriate. A rider giving a friend on another team his bike and his friend proceeds to take significant time on his gc rivals, that's when you give time penalties or dq's.

 

[damian13ster]

Are you saying that the rule I quoted:
3.3. Rider taking off the mandatory helmet disqualified and 100 disqualified and 50
Should not be applied though, or that Contador knew he was breaking it (knowing the rules of the sport he participates in)?

 

[mufana]

There were other riders from SKY around when Clarke changed the wheel. Why didn't they do nothing?

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Re: Re:

[quote="

Knowing the rules of the sport you're participating in is marginal gain #1.

This.

 

[sir fly]

This is clear cut case of selective justice and tendentious, malevolent, interpretation of a rule.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

[quote="Mr.White

It is different obviously, there's a rule against it, rider like Richie Porte should of known that, and team like Sky.

Porte is one of my least favourite members of one of my least favourite teams, but to be blunt I think there's a lot of unseemly gloating going on in this thread. Porte and Clarke are professional athletes, not lawyers. It is not remotely surprising that neither were aware of an obscure, rarely used, rule inamongst a vast collection of obscure, rarely relevant, UCI regulations. No rider knows and understands all of those regulations, on Sky or on any other team and nobody would suggest that any rider or team they actually like should be expected to.

Here one rider made a sporting gesture to help another, presumably a friend, who was going to lose time on a meaningless sprint stage because of an unlucky puncture. That was, it turns out, clearly against the rules. It's equally clear that neither understood that it was against the rules - and neither did the official Giro twitter account for that matter. Instead of taking a lot of the intrigue out of the GC race, the commissaires should use some common sense.Issue a fine or perhaps a few seconds penalty to balance out any advantage Porte received from taking the wrong rider's wheel. Accompany the fine or penalty with a sternly worded reminder of the rules and a threat to disqualify anyone who does it again. Then move on with no harm done to the race. I say this as someone who would much prefer to see Aru etc win.[/quote]

The rule is strict, 2 minutes is minimal penalty, you can not apply it selective. And i never heard that this rule is overlooked, if you know give me example. I'm sorry for Porte also, but that's the rule, he should of known, or at least Brailsford should of known. Big fail from them

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Re: Re:

Sky need fewer marginal gains and more marginal brains.

WTF was that Sky rider doing watching Clarke change Richie's wheel?

But, honestly, I hate this rule. I don't think Porte should have been penalized here.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

If you think it's a BS rule, blame the rule-makers, not the enforcers.

Can you blame the enforcers when they choose what rules to enforce though ?

Like I said most of the time they just ignore the rules.

So when they do randomly enforce a rule you think there should be a good reason for it.

I do blame enforcers for thinking Quintanas attack past neutralisation flags was not an issue but this is.

That wasn't a neutralisation flag. They didn't punish him, because they couldn't. Only the commission can neutralize a race, and it wasn't the commission who decided to have motorbikes with red flags.

The Commission?

Oh noes, that sounds Italian.

/Sky Tears mode

 

[Couq-DK]

Re:

There were other riders from SKY around when Clarke changed the wheel. Why didn't they do nothing?

Most likely because Clark was the first to stop and help him.

Bad for the excitement of the Giro, but rules are rules and needs to be followed or else havoc follows.

 

[The Barb]

Re: Re:

[quote="Mr.White

It is different obviously, there's a rule against it, rider like Richie Porte should of known that, and team like Sky.

The rule is strict, 2 minutes is minimal penalty, you can not apply it selective. And i never heard that this rule is overlooked, if you know give me example. I'm sorry for Porte also, but that's the rule, he should of known, or at least Brailsford should of known. Big fail from them

Exactly. It would be nice to think Brailsford might be a a little humbled by this, but it's much easier to blame the Rule or the Jury than to accept personal responsibility.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Worse news - Sky now tumble all the way to 21st in the Fair Play Classification. They're ahead of Orica though, who were already racking up the fair play violations as they already had 60 more violation points than Sky. Which, when you consider 18 of 22 teams haven't got 60 violation points at all yet, is quite something.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

Sky need fewer marginal gains and more marginal brains.

WTF was that Sky rider doing watching Clarke change Richie's wheel?

But, honestly, I hate this rule. I don't think Porte should have been penalized here.

He might of arrived as a change was going on for all we know.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

What's baffling for me is that reading Twitter is pretty clear most pros have no idea of what the rules of their sport say.

No pro is familiar with all of the UCIs regulations. Not most pros aren't. No pro is. For that matter, the UCI's in house lawyers won't be familiar with all of them, without going to the written rules to check.

This.

Pros are paid to ride their bikes - not be lawyers. The team have people who know rules. Its the same in most Professional sports.

But in the heat of the moment you don't have time to consult the team car what to do.

On the other hand "marginal gains" should certainly apply to knowing basic rules. Not using a rival teams wheel is kind of basic I think? But did the team car see the incident immediately and have time to instruct Richie over his radio?