Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fair?

[veji11]

Re: Re:

Just remind me how many times this has been an issue in the past? I understand these are the big issues for the sport!

Look what do you want me to say ? Is this rule "a key issue for the sport" ? No I don't think so no, but it exists and it exists for a reason. It is damn unfortunate Porte put himself in such a situation by just panicking and acting completely braindead in the face of what is classic cycling occurence : a flat tire as the peloton rides fast away from you. It has happened to all greats but they haven't made a total mess out of it like HE did. HE parked on the left side so was missed by his car. HE took his mate's wheel, forgetting for a while that "hey maybe I should take my teammate's rather than my homie's from another team". HE made a mess out of something so mundane and ordinary.

Had he managed that with a modicum of intelligence, he would have lost 30 seconds and be done with it. He lost close to 3 minutes because of his blunders. Let's not make the rules the culprit here ok ? Sometimes rule are not very clever or very fair or whatever, but they are there and as other and I have said, there have been examples in the past of that rule being applied in the exact same way (Tour de l'Avenir 2009, Romain Sicard). That it doesn't happen that often is a testament to riders' intelligence and ability to PROPERLY do a wheel change when need be. For Porte to mess up such a trivial incident is in itself inexcusable when you pretend to be a GT winner.

No need to delve into a meta debate about fairness and the spirit of the law.

If you are happy to bring things down to an intelligence test that is your choice. I like the passion and instinctive decision making of our sport. Cheating to win and accepting anothers support to stay in contention are not the same thing. Or have I missed the point!

The point is that Porte made a series of mistakes that the help of another rider from another team sacrificing his chances (ie he ends up waiting on the side of the road) helped to mitigate. This isn't how it works. You have teammates for that. This isn't Porte having a hard time because he is sick or tired and getting a friendly helpful pull from a mate part of the way, this is Porte putting himself in a bad situation, making a puncture a lot worse than it is, and being pulled out this mess he made by someone outside of his team. That is the issue here. He had bad luck sure, but he also made big mistakes for which he should have paid the price. Clarke's help was, even if innocent, akin to a "get out of jail" card. Doesn't work like this, sorry.

 

[bobbins]

Re: Re:

Just remind me how many times this has been an issue in the past? I understand these are the big issues for the sport!

Look what do you want me to say ? Is this rule "a key issue for the sport" ? No I don't think so no, but it exists and it exists for a reason. It is damn unfortunate Porte put himself in such a situation by just panicking and acting completely braindead in the face of what is classic cycling occurence : a flat tire as the peloton rides fast away from you. It has happened to all greats but they haven't made a total mess out of it like HE did. HE parked on the left side so was missed by his car. HE took his mate's wheel, forgetting for a while that "hey maybe I should take my teammate's rather than my homie's from another team". HE made a mess out of something so mundane and ordinary.

Had he managed that with a modicum of intelligence, he would have lost 30 seconds and be done with it. He lost close to 3 minutes because of his blunders. Let's not make the rules the culprit here ok ? Sometimes rule are not very clever or very fair or whatever, but they are there and as other and I have said, there have been examples in the past of that rule being applied in the exact same way (Tour de l'Avenir 2009, Romain Sicard). That it doesn't happen that often is a testament to riders' intelligence and ability to PROPERLY do a wheel change when need be. For Porte to mess up such a trivial incident is in itself inexcusable when you pretend to be a GT winner.

No need to delve into a meta debate about fairness and the spirit of the law.

This is spot on - if Porte was professional he would have handled it a whole lot better. Lesson learned, move on.

 

[Carstenbf]

Unfortunate, stupid and ultimately completely avoidable is my take on the situation. Couple of questions ..

1) Where the hell was the Sky car? Did Porte stop in the left side of the road and they passed him? (mistake #1)

2) When he finally reconnected with the team, he was on the last wheel and almost got dropped because the others where drafting behind the cars. Should've been in front! Clearly that took the wind out of him and he had nothing in the end. (mistake #2)

3) Why did the caravan stop? Normally a fast bikechange would keep you in the caravan, and he should've lost max 20s. Took them forever to start passing him, compounding the misfortune.

Not a Richie fan here, but he is on my fantasy team though. Sky have noone but themselves to blame imo.
Oh, and on topic. What's the organizers supposed to do? A rider breaks the rules, and then posts the pics of the deed on twitter for all to see. Sad situation, but again it should never have gotten to that point.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re: Re:

Granted, Hitch - "all the time" is an exaggeration, but there seem to have been quite a few of these incidences. The one I'm thinking of concretely is, if my memory serves me right, from the legendary Galibier stage. You could see Sanchez and Contador avidly discussing tactics in the chasing group - of course they could have been talking about the weather, too - but judging from the context, the most likely explanation is that Sanchez asked an isolated Contador if he should put his Euskaltel team to work for him. Even though they didn't end up doing that cause Contador himself just didn't have the form to keep up with the best, it seems like a clear example of what I called "creating an unfair advantage by ganging up" - Contador was isolated yet all of a sudden he got a whole new batch of shiny orange team mates. Basically it was like everyone was riding on teams of 9 and Contador had a team of 18.

I could be mixing up stages here, forgive me if I do, but I think this was on the legendary Galibier stage. Now I know what you're gonna say - what about Dries Devenyns? Indeed Devenyns - god bless him - in an act of selfless heroism helped pull for Andy in the valley, but it was a spontaneous personal decision, whereas the Euskaltel-Saxo Bank block had more of a secretely organized monopoly feel to it.

Of course this is all legal and these are purely my subjective appreciations, but it does illustrate to some degree why this specific rule that we are currently discussing exists - generally, teams ganging up creates unfair advantages.

Other examples that immediately spring to mind
Bernie in the Olympics as aprt of the Team GB train
Ride Surrey where a British team helped Cavendish to win the debut event.
Sky working for JTL when he was at Endura.


Teams riding for a rider from another team is a fairly common occurance.
There usual is some sort of quid pro quo involved of course.

 

[fatsprintking]

Re: Re:

Just remind me how many times this has been an issue in the past? I understand these are the big issues for the sport!

Look what do you want me to say ? Is this rule "a key issue for the sport" ? No I don't think so no, but it exists and it exists for a reason. It is damn unfortunate Porte put himself in such a situation by just panicking and acting completely braindead in the face of what is classic cycling occurence : a flat tire as the peloton rides fast away from you. It has happened to all greats but they haven't made a total mess out of it like HE did. HE parked on the left side so was missed by his car. HE took his mate's wheel, forgetting for a while that "hey maybe I should take my teammate's rather than my homie's from another team". HE made a mess out of something so mundane and ordinary.

Had he managed that with a modicum of intelligence, he would have lost 30 seconds and be done with it. He lost close to 3 minutes because of his blunders. Let's not make the rules the culprit here ok ? Sometimes rule are not very clever or very fair or whatever, but they are there and as other and I have said, there have been examples in the past of that rule being applied in the exact same way (Tour de l'Avenir 2009, Romain Sicard). That it doesn't happen that often is a testament to riders' intelligence and ability to PROPERLY do a wheel change when need be. For Porte to mess up such a trivial incident is in itself inexcusable when you pretend to be a GT winner.

No need to delve into a meta debate about fairness and the spirit of the law.

If you are happy to bring things down to an intelligence test that is your choice. I like the passion and instinctive decision making of our sport. Cheating to win and accepting anothers support to stay in contention are not the same thing. Or have I missed the point!

The point is that Porte made a series of mistakes that the help of another rider from another team sacrificing his chances (ie he ends up waiting on the side of the road) helped to mitigate. This isn't how it works. You have teammates for that. This isn't Porte having a hard time because he is sick or tired and getting a friendly helpful pull from a mate part of the way, this is Porte putting himself in a bad situation, making a puncture a lot worse than it is, and being pulled out this mess he made by someone outside of his team. That is the issue here. He had bad luck sure, but he also made big mistakes for which he should have paid the price. Clarke's help was, even if innocent, akin to a "get out of jail" card. Doesn't work like this, sorry.

You are shifting me aren't you! We are talking about a situation where the rider was going to loose time on a stage by any measure where they were not expected to loose time. I am not saying that they should not have lost time. I am saying that no "spirit" of he sport was breached and now the spirit of the race is.

Porte should have lost time on the road. Not 2min via a committee.

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

You are shifting me aren't you! We are talking about a situation where the rider was going to loose time on a stage by any measure where they were not expected to loose time. I am not saying that they should not have lost time. I am saying that no "spirit" of he sport was breached and now the spirit of the race is.

Porte should have lost time on the road. Not 2min via a committee.

Agreed, that Clark's selflessness prevented part of that time loss at the cost of renouncing his performance is why they both got the penalty : Porte should have lost time on the road because of the puncture and his management of it.

 

[fatsprintking]

Re: Re:

You are shifting me aren't you! We are talking about a situation where the rider was going to loose time on a stage by any measure where they were not expected to loose time. I am not saying that they should not have lost time. I am saying that no "spirit" of he sport was breached and now the spirit of the race is.

Porte should have lost time on the road. Not 2min via a committee.

Agreed, that Clark's selflessness prevented part of that time loss at the cost of renouncing his performance is why they both got the penalty : Porte should have lost time on the road because of the puncture and his management of it.

In a historical context we will see how this interpretation holds up. I am quite confident that it will do badly.

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

You are shifting me aren't you! We are talking about a situation where the rider was going to loose time on a stage by any measure where they were not expected to loose time. I am not saying that they should not have lost time. I am saying that no "spirit" of he sport was breached and now the spirit of the race is.

Porte should have lost time on the road. Not 2min via a committee.

Agreed, that Clark's selflessness prevented part of that time loss at the cost of renouncing his performance is why they both got the penalty : Porte should have lost time on the road because of the puncture and his management of it.

In a historical context we will see how this interpretation holds up. I am quite confident that it will do badly.

Let history be the judge then !

 

[70kmph]

Collusion between 2 Australians

 

[hrotha]

Re:

Collusion between 2 Australians

It really is as simple as this. The "spirit of the law" is to avoid precisely this thing.

 

[Carols]

No one has provided even one example of a wheel given by a different team in a WT race Not being enforced. It seems it is Always enforced. Time to move on.

 

[Andreasjs]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

I am a Contador fan but trying to be neutral here. I think Porte and Sky have themselves only to blame for this.

1. Porte and Sky did not handle the puncture in a smart way
No need to repeat in length what has already been said in other posts: He went to the left side, his team mate(s) did not assist him with a wheel etc etc. That is just not smart to do when you are a GC contender going for the win. Winning a GC not only requires cycling skills but also skill in handling the adversity that often does occur in a 3 week race. Little Richie and Sky could not.

2. They broke a rule
They broke a rule, period and UCI enforced that rule. You might argue that this destroyed the fairness of the race, that the penalty is too significant and that Porte might not know the rule -- I understand those arguments (and also the advocates of the rules). However, I repeat: Porte broke a rule. Black and white. There really isnt a grey zone. He broke a rule!

I know I am not a GC contender but in an Ironman distance race, I had to get rid of a water bottle. I was not in a designated litter zone but a van was parked at the side of the road and had a trash can and a person standing next to it. I slowed down and asked the person if I could discard the bottle, he said yes. So I threw the bottle next to the trash can. An official was just behind on a moto and I got a 3 minute penalty. Was I throwing the bottle to litter? No. Did I violate the spirit of the rule? No Did I know I could not litter? No (I thought back then it was a guideline, not a rule) Did I break a rule? Yes. Should I receive a penalty? Yes Who should I blame for the penalty? Myself


We can go on and on about if the rule is fair, if the jury should have been more relaxed, conspirancy theories and what have you but in the end of the day I think its pretty simple. Porte made 2 mistakes (not handling the puncture in a smart way, then breaking a rule). Only after making those 2 mistakes, the UCI became relevant and he and Sky and the Sky fans had to relyce on UCI being gentle.

Now its up to Porte to show what he is made up. A true GC contender would rise from the ashes. He now has an excellent opportunity to show what he is made of For the race, I hope this happens.

 

[Eagle]

Sean Kelly just said it was a pretty straight forward situation and they made the right decision

 

[movingtarget]

It seems that Porte was on the wrong side of the road because he almost crashed going through the roundabout when he punctured according to Porte himself. Clarke was behind him and almost ran into the back of Porte. They both saw the Sky riders ahead of them on the opposite side of the road and that was when Clarke said he acted without thinking. It was just instinct. The neutral service car was up the road following the peloton and the Sky car was not on the spot at that time. Porte seemed to take the penalty on the chin and just wants to get on with the race although he admitted to being disappointed. This info was from a pre stage interview on today's stage.

 

[PeterB]

Re:

No one has provided even one example of a wheel given by a different team in a WT race Not being enforced. It seems it is Always enforced. Time to move on.

This has been suggested as another example, although it is not entirely clear if a wheel was given by Team Sky.
https://twitter.com/GianniMeersman/status/597829780256460800
And some noted that the rule prohibits help from riders, not necessarily other team members...

 

[Taxus4a]

These are the rules, but IMO without no possible interpretation or exceptions according the circunstances, it is an unfair rule.

IMO in the case of a rider has any problem that make you yes or yes losed time just for bad luck, and there is not self fault, the time losed in GC should be the half or even the third part, in order to dont change the bahaviuor of the rider, and to dont give him advantage, but dont give so many influence to the luck, becouse for me cycling shouldn`t be poker. Luck would be always a factor, but not so important.

 

[the sceptic]

Re:

Sean Kelly just said it was a pretty straight forward situation and they made the right decision

it's very straight forward. the only ppl whining are sky fans.

 

[Carols]

Re: Re:

No one has provided even one example of a wheel given by a different team in a WT race Not being enforced. It seems it is Always enforced. Time to move on.

This has been suggested as another example, although it is not entirely clear if a wheel was given by Team Sky.
https://twitter.com/GianniMeersman/status/597829780256460800
And some noted that the rule prohibits help from riders, not necessarily other team members...

Exactly. No one even knows if he was given a wheel much less if it came from a rider not on his team.

So only examples are from when they Have Penalized for it.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

If Porte had not been penalized, the rule would have to be removed completely, because it could not be enforced in the future.

Hated to see Porte lose time like that, even though I'm not a fan of his, but that's life. He's a "professional" rider. That entails more than just pedaling your bike. It requires some basic knowledge of the rules of your sport.

 

[PeterB]

Re: Re:

Collusion between 2 Australians

It really is as simple as this. The "spirit of the law" is to avoid precisely this thing.

I still find it rather hard to understand what particular damage could be caused by "this thing". Compared to benefits the race could get from it sport-wise (i.e. letting the sport decide the result, not punctures).

Don't get me wrong - the penalty was just, because the rule was broken. I question reasons for existence for such a rule.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Sean Kelly just said it was a pretty straight forward situation and they made the right decision

Cedric Vasseur on Bein who gives out ratings to riders teams etc after each stage, gave Sky 0 out of 10 and the organizers 10 out of 10. - for having the balls to take the right decision.

 

[nayr497]

Porte broke a rule and got caught. Take the penalty and suck it up.

This is like saying, "Oh, the ref missed that penalty, so technically my team should have won." Refs don't see every foul or every penalty, the UCI doesn't enforce every rule all the time. That's just how it goes. It's sport, it's not perfect.

Call is the Stupid Tax. Why the heck did Sky leave their Mobile Home Man isolated like that? They deserve to be penalized for that alone.

 

[veji11]

Re:

These are the rules, but IMO without no possible interpretation or exceptions according the circunstances, it is an unfair rule.

IMO in the case of a rider has any problem that make you yes or yes losed time just for bad luck, and there is not self fault, the time losed in GC should be the half or even the third part, in order to dont change the bahaviuor of the rider, and to dont give him advantage, but dont give so many influence to the luck, becouse for me cycling shouldn`t be poker. Luck would be always a factor, but not so important.

But their is self fault as you say ! Porte parked on the left where he couldn't be seen by his car nor helped by his teammates and as the panick grows he takes Clarke's wheel. There are 2 faults there !

The heart of the matter is that what happened to Porte isn't bad luck. It's a bit of bad luck (puncture) magnified by a gigantic cockup !

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Sean Kelly just said it was a pretty straight forward situation and they made the right decision

it's very straight forward. the only ppl whining are sky fans.

not me, I'm ok with the 2 min rule
even more imagining the mayhem on twitter/forum if he did not get punished

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re: Porte Penalised 2 minutes for getting Clarkes Wheel -Fai

I'm glad that in the non-anglophone world, the papers, media, tv etc aren't saying this is a bad decission at all. they are ridiculing porte and most of all sky for making these terrible mistakes. every team knows the rules or they are idiots and why isn't it that henao gave his bike to porte? they are LITERALLY the same size. and why didn't viviani and konig drop back? etc etc. the team is ran like a group of idiots