Potential reactions to Armstrong news...

[Dallas_]

Yes, it is called tortious interference. Greg has a slam dunk case and Trek is not the only instance. Greg can finally speak his mind and if Wonderboy raises a stink the lawsuit is filed the next day.

Is tortious interference a civil matter?

And on another matter, what about Mike Anderson. I heard his story only up until Girona and court case. My impression is he has not been treated well either.
And why move to location X. Is Mike waiting to move legally as well?
More mud on the target's feet I presume!
These are only the people we know of. Is there a continuing trail of carnage we dont know of?
cheers

 

[unsheath]

Why hasnt LA Confientiel been made into a TV documentary? If I was a filmaker, I'll be all over Ballester/Walsh like a fly to s..t. A lot of money and notoriety to be made in this exposé.

 

[Granville57]

First off, the Merckx issue was on my mind with his recent doubts about Contador. All his greatness aside, I thought Eddy would do well to shut his mouth in regards to AC.

"...the explanations given by Contador seem lightweight and not very credible to me.”

So what about LA is "credible" to him? It just seems like a very slippery slope for him go to down in terms of where he casts his support.

The Versus crew:
Well they should be offering us some of the most entertaining responses of all. The average viewer has no idea about the long history these guys all share with LA. I doubt anything I could make up would be as laughable as what they come up with. In the end though they'll probably do what they usually do: whatever they're told to do.

When it comes to the general public, the average uninformed American in particular, there is one thing to remember: The only thing they like more than building up their "heroes," is tearing them down. Tiger was A-1 Celebrity Gold, but he fell fast and hard. The one thing the public seems to hate the most, is a liar. The general ignorance of cycling didn't soften the public's response to Landis. "We don't anything about that sport but he lied. He's a liar. GET THE TORCHES!"

Step back for a minute and imagine just how many people (and I'm sure there are plenty) who don't follow any of the sordid details about the investigation, who's lives are filled with more important things so this is off their radar entirely, and who genuinely have no idea what's about to come crashing down. But the news media will likely be at their uniformed finest and look for the juiciest and most inflammatory headlines and catch-phrases to plaster across every living room in the land. No amount of money will stop that avalanche of negative press.

Lance
I could imagine either O.J.-style denial to the very end or one of the centuries great public meltdowns. What also comes to mind is Kirk's and Spock's foiling of "Norman" with the Liar Paradox
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMegqgGORY

...or this. Catching a liar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebrqsWZfiKk&feature=related

 

[Berzin]

This may sound inconsequential, but Carmichael's standing going forward is interesting.

He is making good money off clueless triathletes and master's racers with money to burn, but my feeling is he does well because he markets his association with Armstrong to people who pander to his credentials as Armstrong's coach.

So during these overpriced personal sessions with well-heeled clients, the scenario I picture is of Carmichael regaling these doofuses with stories about Lance this and Lance that, because that is part of what they're paying Carmichael for-access to the man who trained "The Man", who let us not forget was the best triathlete the world had ever seen before he switched exclusively to road cycling.

I'll bet anything the name Armstrong comes out of his mouth about 50 times every hour when speaking with clients, because he knows that's what they want to hear.

The credibility issue will be something he'll have a difficult time circumnavigating.

 

[hfer07]

Apart from the usual suspects already mentioned- I really like to know "how Pat McQuaid is going to defend his friend-and perhaps himself-when the 500K donation dilemma gets to be answered in the courtroom....

 

[Polish]

This may sound inconsequential, but Carmichael's standing going forward is interesting.

He is making good money off clueless triathletes and master's racers with money to burn, but my feeling is he does well because he markets his association with Armstrong to people who pander to his credentials as Armstrong's coach.

So during these overpriced personal sessions with well-heeled clients, the scenario I picture is of Carmichael regaling these doofuses with stories about Lance this and Lance that, because that is part of what they're paying Carmichael for-access to the man who trained "The Man", who let us not forget was the best triathlete the world had ever seen before he switched exclusively to road cycling.

I'll bet anything the name Armstrong comes out of his mouth about 50 times every hour when speaking with clients, because he knows that's what they want to hear.

The credibility issue will be something he'll have a difficult time circumnavigating.

There is also a good chance Carmichael's CRED will go UP.
Way up.

Think about it, are the "clueless" triathletes and the master riders that you imagine in your scenario God fearing, fair and square mormenites? Early to bed, early to rise - like Lance?

Or are they looking for coaching tips on how to win at any cost? Supplement popping, "A personality" types who would love to piggyback a ride on their Company's private jet to the next out of state competition? Master dopers.
Heck, they probably write off Carmicheal's fee on their taxes. Educational expense.

And isn't Coach Ferarri set to retire soon?
Carmichael's coaching biz can pick up the slack.

 

[Race Radio]

The amount of stuff about to hit the fan is enormous. Even the favorite fall back of "Level Playing Field" will be exposed.

The groupies will be fleeing like rats from a sinking ship.

 

[BotanyBay]

Those who have wrapped themselves in an emotional blanket of yellow are probably too emotionally invested to do a 180 degree turn. So when the scam is exposed to sunlight, they'll just quickly protect their eyes from any potential harm:

At the very least, they'll have to go through the stages of grief:

Disbelief, anger, bargaining, acceptance, etc. It'll take them months (if not years).

 

[Polish]

The amount of stuff about to hit the fan is enormous. Even the favorite fall back of "Level Playing Field" will be exposed.

The groupies will be fleeing like rats from a sinking ship.

If Lance snitches out other riders.....

And if Eddy stops being a fanboy.....

That would hurt. Hurt bad.
Still wouldn't be a hater though

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

The amount of stuff about to hit the fan is enormous. Even the favorite fall back of "Level Playing Field" will be exposed.

The groupies will be fleeing like rats from a sinking ship.

You sure about that? I'm beginning to wonder about the thundering silence of late.

 

[thehog]

You sure about that? I'm beginning to wonder about the thundering silence of late.

Theres a real good nugget comin' soon.

 

[Race Radio]

You sure about that? I'm beginning to wonder about the thundering silence of late.

I am SURE about that.

It might not come in the time frames that everyone hopes but the stories will be printed, charges will be filed.

Wonderboy is about to get some serious payback.

 

[AnythingButKestrel]

I am SURE about that.

It might not come in the time frames that everyone hopes but the stories will be printed, charges will be filed.

Wonderboy is about to get some serious payback.

Thanks. At this point, I'd just settle for turning off the cancer funding siphon. Any clue why virtually none of what has been dug up hasn't made it into the mainstream media? To me, that's the real story - and the real crime - or at least crying shame.

 

[Hugh Januss]

If Lance snitches out other riders.....

And if Eddy stops being a fanboy.....

That would hurt. Hurt bad.
Still wouldn't be a hater though

The LA fans who are still hanging on are beginning to resemble battered wives still "standing by their man".

 

[BotanyBay]

The LA fans who are still hanging on are beginning to resemble battered wives still "standing by their man".

Because they are the same. Birds of a feather, flock together.

 

[Kodiak]

I agree the Vick comparison is a terrible one. He's admitted what he did, and done all he can since to make amends. What he did was terrible, and he deserved to go to prison, but I don't know what else the guy could be doing right now other than what he is.

To compare Lance to Vick would be if Vick to have been an owner of a large animal rescue and appearing in publications as such, while he was dog fighting. Then denied everything, and even sued other people, up through his trial.

Unless of course someone thinks Lance is going to come clean the way Vick did. Even then, he's going to look like a huge hypocrite as Vick wasn't accused of dog fighting until close to when he was arrested, then it didn't take him long to plea out and confess. Armstrong's been denying for a decade.

Lance's best hope is that like politicians, somehow enough people don't pay attention, or don't care. But this is going to be a tremendously long fall.

The Comparison's aren't that far off. Before Vick got arrested for the dog fighting ring he was a customer of mine in Atlanta. He did not fit the stereotype of a dog fighter as the dog food he was buying every week was not one that a dog fighter would even think about. He was involved in animal rescue, donating money to my dog rescue groups that held weekly adoption events at my store. He even owned a couple exotic birds. Buying toys for his dogs and birds didn't strike me as a person involved with that mess. He had his crew of sycophants that followed him where ever he went and from what I saw on the news the dog fighting ring was based in his native Virginia and mostly run by his "friends" and family there. You could have kicked me in the gut and gotten less of a reaction when Vick was arrested for that. I imagine the throngs of one nut lovers will be much the same.


K

 

[Oldman]

There is also a good chance Carmichael's CRED will go UP.
Way up.

Think about it, are the "clueless" triathletes and the master riders that you imagine in your scenario God fearing, fair and square mormenites? Early to bed, early to rise - like Lance?

Or are they looking for coaching tips on how to win at any cost? Supplement popping, "A personality" types who would love to piggyback a ride on their Company's private jet to the next out of state competition? Master dopers.
Heck, they probably write off Carmicheal's fee on their taxes. Educational expense.

And isn't Coach Ferarri set to retire soon?
Carmichael's coaching biz can pick up the slack.

You describe Weisel's masters involvement to a "t". Carmichael just picked up the regional franchise after Eddie B started it.

 

[blackcat]

I agree the Vick comparison is a terrible one. He's admitted what he did, and done all he can since to make amends. What he did was terrible, and he deserved to go to prison, but I don't know what else the guy could be doing right now other than what he is.

To compare Lance to Vick would be if Vick to have been an owner of a large animal rescue and appearing in publications as such, while he was dog fighting. Then denied everything, and even sued other people, up through his trial.

Unless of course someone thinks Lance is going to come clean the way Vick did. Even then, he's going to look like a huge hypocrite as Vick wasn't accused of dog fighting until close to when he was arrested, then it didn't take him long to plea out and confess. Armstrong's been denying for a decade.

Lance's best hope is that like politicians, somehow enough people don't pay attention, or don't care. But this is going to be a tremendously long fall.

AdH,

other cultures fight cocks, spear bulls, shoot dear and moose.

It is not edifying, and I am not defending it, but we also put folks on the cusp of mental retardation in the electric chair or lethal injection. Wanna go all moral relativist, what Vick did, was breach social and cultural mores. He never raped anyone (Kobe et al in pro sport), he never beat up anyone in a bar fight and gave em brain damage.

Enter Peter Singer on animal ethics...

Vick's crime, was making a nasty habit, unacceptable to a bourgeois Monday Night Football audience. Even a Tagliabue or David Stern couldn't'a' greenwashed it

 

[Oldman]

AdH,

other cultures fight cocks, spear bulls, shoot dear and moose.

It is not edifying, and I am not defending it, but we also put folks on the cusp of mental retardation in the electric chair or lethal injection. Wanna go all moral relativist, what Vick did, was breach social and cultural mores. He never raped anyone (Kobe et al in pro sport), he never beat up anyone in a bar fight and gave em brain damage.

Enter Peter Singer on animal ethics...

Vick's crime, was making a nasty habit, unacceptable to a bourgeois Monday Night Football audience. Even a Tagliabue or David Stern couldn't'a' greenwashed it

Well put and adds emphasis to the difference in potential public response: Vick served his time but will never likely have any fans in PETA.
Lance won't have a large, media based "league" to frame his redemption because: a) there is not much of an credible, authoritive identity to Pro Cycling b) he is no longer a viable player in the sport c) the longer he delays dealing with the truth the more he diminishes any comparative measure of his sporting achievement. Note I said comparative because his fans want that shred of dignity that comes with Lance being pre-eminent among dopers. The UCI will not help him with that image problem.
d) not even Roger Tagliabue could help someone that started a foundation the size of Livestrong and then used it as their personal expense account.

Michael Vick is on the phoenix tour to resurrection at this point. If he leads his team to a Super Bowl victory it will be interesting how he and the public handles the crime and punishment already served.

 

[JayZee]

I am SURE about that.

It might not come in the time frames that everyone hopes but the stories will be printed, charges will be filed.

Wonderboy is about to get some serious payback.

I am very interested in seeing how this will effect Armstrong in the public eye in the U.S. I don't know what bombshell you are hinting at, but I can guess.

All along my thought has been that whatever the truth is, it really won't effect his image that much among the general U.S. population. For whatever reason, the general population really likes Lance (or at least the Lance story and the Lance image that has been carefully crafted). The shine has obviously worn off some, but I still think he is pretty popular (a fact supported by his face staring back at us from adds). I guess it depends on how bad the "truth" is. If it is just doping to win the Tour, I think there will be very little impact. If it is fraud through his "charitable" organization to dupe people out of their money, then there will be a bigger hit.

The comparison to Vick is appropriate. Pre-dog fighting conviction Vick was very popular, but the nastiness of what he was involved in overwhelmed his popularity and he was pretty much universally disliked. However, he has served his time and has gained back at least some of his prior popularity, and, at least by some people, has essentially been forgiven.

I think it all comes down to how well liked the individual is and how badly people want to see them fail. Tiger Woods is a good example of someone that was very popular, but not very likable. When his issues came to light there seemed to be a sense of glee about his downfall.

Barry Bonds, Kobe Bryant and Brett Farve are also interesting cases as well that may shed some light on the road that LA faces.

So where does Armstrong fit? My guess is that it all depends on how ugly the truth is.

 

[Granville57]

You describe Weisel's masters involvement to a "t". Carmichael just picked up the regional franchise after Eddie B started it.

Indeed.

Speaking of Weisel...if this point has been elaborated on previously, then forgive the redundancy.
Many of these issues have been well covered but certain things had always jumped out at me.
Of course we had the Wall St Journal coverage
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704457604576011490820993006.html

But long before that, there was this from 1999
Thom Weisel, the Man Behind the Man in the Yellow Jersey
http://www.thestreet.com/story/769268/thom-weisel-the-man-behind-the-man-in-the-yellow-jersey.html

Weisel...finished fourth in the 1960 Olympic trials and failed to qualify. "We've joked that if he made the Olympic team, he wouldn't have gone on to do what he did," says [Matt] Gorski, who won cycling gold in the 1984 Olympic Games in Los Angeles.

In the late 1980s, Weisel took to masters cycling. Three times a week, after the close of the market, Weisel would take a private jet from San Francisco to San Diego to train with the best, "Eddie B."

Again, points that have all been covered. But this one provided some interesting quotes as well:

A few years back Bill Gifford wrote a good article in Outside on the Champions Club

http://outsideonline.com/outside/features/200606/champions-club-1.html?page=1

Between 1989 and 1991, Weisel won three masters world championships and five national titles on the road and track.
When it was all over, a friend asked if it had been worth it. His reply: Yeah, but only because I won.

In 1991 the 50-year-old Weisel set a world masters record in the one-kilometer time trial.

So here's my question: Is it wrong to assume, given the company he was keeping, and his “only because I won” mindset, that this has at least the appearance of yet another “assisted” masters cyclist?

Another fitting quote from above

"I'm chemically dependent on exercise"

Interesting choice of words.

 

[craig1985]

Why would ASO sue Armstrong, when they haven't sued anybody else?

 

[frenchfry]

The average LA fanboy/girl doesn't know squat about cycling. Any doping revelations don't have much effect on how they perceive their hero. Cycling was just a springboard to the cancer scam.

Now where he has a big risk is if it exposed that he deliberatly set up / transformed the cancer scam for personal gain. His average cancer victim fan might not appreciate this at all, the same fan who couldn't care less if LA was doped to the gills for years.

 

[Berzin]

Now where he has a big risk is if it exposed that he deliberately set up / transformed the cancer scam for personal gain. His average cancer victim fan might not appreciate this at all, the same fan who couldn't care less if LA was doped to the gills for years.

I think those fans WILL be upset because Armstrong sold his achievements as a by-product of clean living and hard work.

We have an extremely hypocritical, hyper-Calvinistic/Puritanical streak running through American society that elevates "hard work" to the level of monastic worship. The self-righteousness with which people fill themselves when it comes to their work ethic is what allows them to think that whatever they've gotten in life is because they've earned it. In this world, nepotism, cronyism, bribery and prejudice don't exist as causal factors to illustrate why some people achieve great things and others do not.

The fact is Armstrong didn't "earn" any of his success. He cheated, he lied about cheating, and he used his cancer charity as a cloak to deflect criticism.

I think even casual Armstrong fans are going to be a bit miffed once the revelations come out. As for Michael Vick, there is nothing
remotely comparable to Armstrong's situation. Bottom line is, Vick was able to redeem himself on the field of play, and his problems didn't stem from anything he did on the gridiron in the first place.

Armstrong cannot go back in time and show people he can win clean, because his career is over. Hence, there will be no on-the-bike redemption for Lance. No showing the world he was the most talented, hardest working cyclist who ever lived. Seeing as these two qualities were the whole foundation of his "brand", it will crumble when exposed.

We all saw this year what he rides like without dope-stumbling, bumbling, anonymous pack jelly who crashes like a novice and who cannot hold the wheels of the heavy hitters either in the mountains or time trials.

That is your Armstrong without dope.

 

[Race Radio]

I am very interested in seeing how this will effect Armstrong in the public eye in the U.S. I don't know what bombshell you are hinting at, but I can guess.

All along my thought has been that whatever the truth is, it really won't effect his image that much among the general U.S. population. For whatever reason, the general population really likes Lance

Wonderboy's popularity has already taken a hit....and we are only just getting started. SI is far from the only large media story in the works. Armstrong will soon be facing multiple lawsuits. It only gets worse from here


http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=capress-cyc_armstrongs_image-4581609

Zeta Interactive, a marketing firm that tracks looks online to see how people are being viewed, found Armstrong has fallen far from his perch as one of the most popular athletes the agency has ever tracked.

Zeta measured Armstrong at 92 per cent popularity in 2008, and he was at 86 per cent in July before the start of his final Tour de France. That number dropped to 51 per cent in August when the federal investigation ramped up and has bumped only slightly to 55 per cent in recent weeks.

"He's flirting with 50-50," said Zeta Interactive CEO Al DiGuido. "For someone trying to build themself as a brand, that's not a good place to be.