Power Data Estimates for the climbing stages

[webvan]

What ?! Regardless of the visual impression (mountain sprints, stop and go attacks, etc...), overall climbing level/intensity on Vuelta was way off the level of the TDF in terms of VAM, just look at the data that was posted for the TDF, starting with PDBD.

PS - There is better data for today's stage just above...

 

[Ferminal]

Great time, looked fast even though they didn't gain a lot on Menchov/Porte.

 

[gilbertador]

I do think th level in the Vuelta has been higher on climbing stages, do you seriously believe that any of the top 5 could go with the top 3 in the vuelta? No chance, Froome would be the only one close if fresh

 

[webvan]

As per my previous posts, just look at the raw numbers at the Tour and at the Vuelta, case closed.

 

[nogav1ca]

Last 3.1km today, thanks to @ammattipyoraily

Bola del Mundo (last 3.1 km, 12.0 %, 372 m). Rodriguez 13:12, Valverde 13:37, Contador 13:56, Moreno 13:56, Talansky 14:15, Mentshov 14:30.

Bola del Mundo (last 3.1 km, 12.0 %, 372 m). Rodriguez 13:12, 14.09 Kph, VAM 1691 m/h, 5.7 W/kg (57 kg) (poor road surface)

Shouldn't it be 6.18 W/kg (not considering wind and surface - taking both into account it should be even higher)? I got 5.42 W/kg from VAM, but then you have to multiply with total weight (+8kg) and after that divide with riders weight. At least if we compare with Brajkovic's data from Tour, where W/kg were given per rider weight.

 

[V3R1T4S]

Real data

I'm surprised no one has brought in actual real data from 2010 - from Nibali, no less - as reference: http://www.srm.de/us/srm-blog/road/...vuelta-espana-2010-bergankunft-bola-del-mundo

Based on this it would seem the wattage estimates for the last 3 kms are pretty close. Of course, the VAM method is extremely accurate for a 12% gradient where virtually no drafting takes place. All other things being equal, for climbs less steep the VAM method overestimates wattages because it doesn't take into account drafting. Especially on tempo climbs or climbs where there are a lot of guys still left at the end this can be substantial.

 

[Havetts]

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/puissances/2012-09-10-cyclisme-dopage.htm


the Inner Ring
@inrng

Summary of watts estimation says Vuelta had highest power of all 3 grand tours this year and Contador almost as strong as 2011 Giro.

 

[maltiv]

http://www.cyclisme-dopage.com/puissances/2012-09-10-cyclisme-dopage.htm


the Inner Ring
@inrng

Summary of watts estimation says Vuelta had highest power of all 3 grand tours this year and Contador almost as strong as 2011 Giro.

I hope he has taken length into account...a lot of those Vuelta climbs were fairly short which obviously increases wattage.

 

[Cyivel]

The Lagos de Covadonga stand out to me 26 minutes climbing, 6.55w/kg for Purito, 6.45 for Contador and 6.35 for Valverde.

Though I should say I'm not particularly au fait with all of this.

 

[Parrulo]

I hope he has taken length into account...a lot of those Vuelta climbs were fairly short which obviously increases wattage.

also no stage longer then 190k and not many climbs during most stages should be taken into account

 

[iZnoGouD]

I guess there's need to be a new power profiling chart because there is a new world record:

5 mins records was 7.60 w/kg and Purito hold 7.85 w/kg for 7 mins, thats crazy

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

 

[hrotha]

Avec les hypothèses (non vérifiables) que Rodriguez aurait utilisé 100% de son VO2max et qu'il dispose d'un rendement énergétique de 23%, sa consommation maximale d'oxygène pourrait dépasser les 95 ml/min/kg, valeur exceptionnelle.

..........

 

[the big ring]

..........

I got a similar value for Brad Wiggins.

If you take Brad's weight down to 69kg, the .23/.24 efficiency values move up to 95/99 ml/m/kg. I deliberately kept it at 72kg so the hater haters don't get their knickers in a twist.

 

[Mr.38%]

I guess there's need to be a new power profiling chart because there is a new world record:

5 mins records was 7.60 w/kg and Purito hold 7.85 w/kg for 7 mins, thats crazy

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/power-profiling.aspx

If those guesstimates are just a tiny 3% off, we're landing at 7,37 W/kg which is still cosidered world class but not topping off the charts. What if the error is 5%?

 

[Gregga]

For such steep climbs, my experience is that precision is close to 1%
(power models vs powertap, no drafting)

So I'm afraid 7.60 w/kg is correct

By the way, having just finished TH's book... I'm afraid the spanish circus is still going very well !

 

[Mr.38%]

For such steep climbs, my experience is that precision is close to 1%
(power models vs powertap, no drafting)

So I'm afraid 7.60 w/kg is correct

By the way, having just finished TH's book... I'm afraid the spanish circus is still going very well !

Powertap vs. SRM? Properly lubed drivetrain or not? 1% is a joke, sorry.

Whatever, if I want to make somebody look supercharged, I'll make him look supercharged. That's what The Clinic is about after all.

 

[acoggan]

What if the error is 5%?

1. According to Vayer (via SoS), the 95% confidence limit is +/- 6%.

2. What struck me about that dataset was the way the four rider's estimated power outputs moved up/down together. That suggests that the data may be biased.

 

[acoggan]

I got a similar value for Brad Wiggins.

If you take Brad's weight down to 69kg, the .23/.24 efficiency values move up to 95/99 ml/m/kg. I deliberately kept it at 72kg so the hater haters don't get their knickers in a twist.

83% of VO2max is awfully low for that duration/quality of athlete, don't you think? I'd say that 90 +/- 5% would be a far more reasonable estimate.

 

[the big ring]

83% of VO2max is awfully low for that duration/quality of athlete, don't you think? I'd say that 90 +/- 5% would be a far more reasonable estimate.

90% -5% = 85%. 83% is only slightly less.

95% of VO2max for what is effectively FTP duration sounds a bit fantastical to me.

For a 33 minute climb, Wiggins did 6.1W/kg @ 72kg (80% of 547W). Here he's TTing at 6.29W/kg (83% of 547) for a 42% longer duration. I'm already gifting him 3% increase in %VO2max and he's doing it significantly longer.

I'm basing my values on what he has done, what we have data for.

I am failing to see how doing intervals in Tenerife would lower his VO2 max - which would have to be the case if he were riding at 90 - 95% VO2 max for 453W.

 

[roundabout]

Eh?

I thought 83% is the figure coggan himself came up with? Boardman was 84%.

Has science moved on since we had the last discussion in July?

 

[the big ring]

Eh?

I thought 83% is the figure coggan himself came up with? Boardman was 84%.

Has science moved on since we had the last discussion in July?

I have been looking for some of those posts but the in-built forum search is not that useful. I could use google with site:cyclingnews.com I guess, but am tired now.

These are curious times.

 

[acoggan]

90% -5% = 85%. 83% is only slightly less.

95% of VO2max for what is effectively FTP duration sounds a bit fantastical to me.

For a 33 minute climb, Wiggins did 6.1W/kg @ 72kg (80% of 547W). Here he's TTing at 6.29W/kg (83% of 547) for a 42% longer duration. I'm already gifting him 3% increase in %VO2max and he's doing it significantly longer.

I'm basing my values on what he has done, what we have data for.

Ah, I see the source of your confusion: power during a pursuit is equal to 110-120% of VO2max, not ~100% of VO2max.

 

[acoggan]

Eh?

I thought 83% is the figure coggan himself came up with? Boardman was 84%.

Peter Keen estimated that Boardman maintained 90% (not 84%) of his VO2max (of 90 mL/min/kg) during his hour record.

 

[Von Mises]

2. What struck me about that dataset was the way the four rider's estimated power outputs moved up/down together. That suggests that the data may be biased.

What do you mean? Can you elaborate?

 

[the big ring]

Ah, I see the source of your confusion: power during a pursuit is equal to 110-120% of VO2max, not ~100% of VO2max.

I'm not confused. His pursuit power was 570W. If I thought pursuit was 100% of VO2max I would have used 570W, not 547W.

I took a 5 minute value from the CP graph you put together.

I recognise VO2 max is 5-8 minutes, but giving him a higher VO2 max provided realistic values.

Changing his P @ VO2 max to 570/1.1 gives a P @ VO2 max of 518W, and a commensurate drop in VO2 to 79 ml/m/kg @ 23% efficiency and 76 ml/m/kg @ 24% efficiency.

That just doesn't smell right for a world class IPer to me. Boardman's VO2 was 90 m/ml/kg according to one of your posts.

570/1.2 gives a P @ VO2 max of 475W which is patently ridiculous, as he's ridden that for 19:14 on the road.