Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be banned?

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

All science aspects of cycling should be banned imo.

TT bikes next.

The UCI is very strange about this. They put some arbitary limits on the weight of bikes and on how aero you are allowed to go with equipment. Making demands that bikes must follow the two triangle design, and even banning things like how you can sit on the bike (the praying Landis posture). But then they allow loads of battery powered devices like electronic shifting, power meters, race radios and data receivers.

The inconsistency is staggering and suggests on one hand they do want to stop science from diminishing an aspect of the sport, but on the other - there is too much money involved to keep it out.

Its about trying to get the balance right. I'm no fan of the UCI but there will always be disagreement as some subjectivity is involved. But banning power meters for racing would be great and a simple rule to enforce.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

At least Valverde had Froome's emotionless watt-based back wheel to latch onto as he rode past him to keep onto second in GC. He should be thanking Froome for riding differently than everyone else and having a wheel not being ridden by someone who's blown up and going backwards compared to Quintana lol!

Wow. And here I thought you would be all for it.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

I wil say something that may be unpopular, but racing (Not training) with powermeter is a disgrace, you can pace yourself based on data rather than your legs, but it doesn't know your feelings, your inner spirit and everything, it may sound as a cliché but it is true, I have rode with and w/o powermeter and I feel a bit more excited and with more attitude without it, of course they should be banned in race, but it doesn't mean that a guy like Cris Froome will lose races because of that, he will have to learn how to ride without it, but once he learn, he will improve.

Riding with the powermeter teach you how to increase your efficiency, but in racing there are many times that it annoys you, you feel that you can go faster and your heart is telling you gogogo, but you know you have to adjust to your tech-pal.

It is really good for training in order to know where your limits are, but in race, there are no limits, is the big shot, I don't know how Froome can use it in races, but in order to avoid a massive powermeter use in the years to follow, they should be banned as soon as possible.

Not unpopular with me. You are 100% spot on. Well said! Of course keep them for training but ban them for racing. Would also be good to see what Froome as a rider is capable of when not ruled by that little screen on his handlebars.

Clearly Froome would do well anyway. He is and he would remain one of the best climbers, with or without a powermeter.

But take yesterday stage for example. Without a powermeter he wouldn't have been able to pace himself to perfection as he did. Most probably he would have pushed a bit too much, fearing to lose too much ground and therefore risking to blow himself up.

You will never know...

I'm not defending him, but it is impossible for us to know how he was feeling it, he finished in a peak, but I believe that in the end he though that he could do better without that dossification at the beggining, it is a bitter sweet taste in the mouth.

You will never know, even CF will never know, what is done is done...

I totally agree. We don't know. And he doesn't either. That's exactly the point. He could have done better! Imagine if he had caught Q. That would have been epic.
Take the powermeter out of the equation and you are adding some randomness to the race for sure.

 

[huangho]

Re:

I think Froome would still do great with no power meter, no race radio, and reduced teams. With that said it would be more fun to see him race under these circumstances.

As a fan I think the one thing they should do is to stop neutralizing stages. Luck is part of cycling and it makes races more fun. Obviously you have to take measures against foul play, but time gaps should be allowed to stand in most circumstances.

Not to stop neutralizing races, but to regulate neutralizations, there are ridicule neutralizations, but there are neutralizations that are almost screaming.

But I agree with your intentions, almost my thoughts

 

[samhocking]

End of the day if you've trained with power as most riders do, ridden the same climbs in training with power and all riders already know the quickest way up any mountain is smooth and steady anyway, the only thing stopping anyone riding like Froome is their belief cycling should be more about entertainment via continuous attacking and slowing down and counterattacking, than actually riding up the mountain faster than your rivals. At the end of the day, you cycle up the mountain using your legs. How much you want to entertain the masses but ride more slowly or with more physical stress on your body is down to riders like Quintana & Valverde. I think the balance is good. Froome's tactic added to the race, otherwise the climb was already mostly over when Quintana dropped Chaves.

 

[huangho]

Re: Re:

I wil say something that may be unpopular, but racing (Not training) with powermeter is a disgrace, you can pace yourself based on data rather than your legs, but it doesn't know your feelings, your inner spirit and everything, it may sound as a cliché but it is true, I have rode with and w/o powermeter and I feel a bit more excited and with more attitude without it, of course they should be banned in race, but it doesn't mean that a guy like Cris Froome will lose races because of that, he will have to learn how to ride without it, but once he learn, he will improve.

Riding with the powermeter teach you how to increase your efficiency, but in racing there are many times that it annoys you, you feel that you can go faster and your heart is telling you gogogo, but you know you have to adjust to your tech-pal.

It is really good for training in order to know where your limits are, but in race, there are no limits, is the big shot, I don't know how Froome can use it in races, but in order to avoid a massive powermeter use in the years to follow, they should be banned as soon as possible.

Not unpopular with me. You are 100% spot on. Well said! Of course keep them for training but ban them for racing. Would also be good to see what Froome as a rider is capable of when not ruled by that little screen on his handlebars.

Clearly Froome would do well anyway. He is and he would remain one of the best climbers, with or without a powermeter.

But take yesterday stage for example. Without a powermeter he wouldn't have been able to pace himself to perfection as he did. Most probably he would have pushed a bit too much, fearing to lose too much ground and therefore risking to blow himself up.

You will never know...

I'm not defending him, but it is impossible for us to know how he was feeling it, he finished in a peak, but I believe that in the end he though that he could do better without that dossification at the beggining, it is a bitter sweet taste in the mouth.

You will never know, even CF will never know, what is done is done...

I totally agree. We don't know. And he doesn't either. That's exactly the point. He could have done better! Imagine if he had caught Q. That would have been epic.
Take the powermeter out of the equation and you are adding some randomness to the race for sure.

I agree with you, they should be banned in races.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

All science aspects of cycling should be banned imo.

TT bikes next.

The UCI is very strange about this. They put some arbitary limits on the weight of bikes and on how aero you are allowed to go with equipment. Making demands that bikes must follow the two triangle design, and even banning things like how you can sit on the bike (the praying Landis posture). But then they allow loads of battery powered devices like electronic shifting, power meters, race radios and data receivers.

The inconsistency is staggering and suggests on one hand they do want to stop science from diminishing an aspect of the sport, but on the other - there is too much money involved to keep it out.

Its about trying to get the balance right. I'm no fan of the UCI but there will always be disagreement as some subjectivity is involved. But banning power meters for racing would be great and a simple rule to enforce.

Once AR comes along it would be much more difficult to enforce. Within ten years the power meter info will be on a hud.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

All science aspects of cycling should be banned imo.

TT bikes next.

The UCI is very strange about this. They put some arbitary limits on the weight of bikes and on how aero you are allowed to go with equipment. Making demands that bikes must follow the two triangle design, and even banning things like how you can sit on the bike (the praying Landis posture). But then they allow loads of battery powered devices like electronic shifting, power meters, race radios and data receivers.

The inconsistency is staggering and suggests on one hand they do want to stop science from diminishing an aspect of the sport, but on the other - there is too much money involved to keep it out.

We can clearly and simply separate technologies into two categories, the ones that are used to provide data and info to the rider (radio, powermeter, computers) and those used to improve the bike performances (e-shifting, materials, weight allowed,...) and deal with the two in a different way

 

[slosada]

I want to see all-in attacks. I want see riders blowing and glorious comebacks.
I want to see one-to-one fights not team-to-one.
I want to see riders desperate to get a time difference, not to instantaneous GPS data on the earpiece.
In a nutshell, I want to see humans racing, not math-modeled circus.

 

[huge]

Re: Re:

All science aspects of cycling should be banned imo.

TT bikes next.

The UCI is very strange about this. They put some arbitary limits on the weight of bikes and on how aero you are allowed to go with equipment. Making demands that bikes must follow the two triangle design, and even banning things like how you can sit on the bike (the praying Landis posture). But then they allow loads of battery powered devices like electronic shifting, power meters, race radios and data receivers.

The inconsistency is staggering and suggests on one hand they do want to stop science from diminishing an aspect of the sport, but on the other - there is too much money involved to keep it out.

Its about trying to get the balance right. I'm no fan of the UCI but there will always be disagreement as some subjectivity is involved. But banning power meters for racing would be great and a simple rule to enforce.

Once AR comes along it would be much more difficult to enforce. Within ten years the power meter info will be on a hud.

10 yrs?

Pretty sure it can be easily done today.

Any shades... could be easily adapted.
It's not like you need Hololense or Google Glasses! Showing a single figure on your glasses is a technology already available and easy to hide

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

All science aspects of cycling should be banned imo.

TT bikes next.

The UCI is very strange about this. They put some arbitary limits on the weight of bikes and on how aero you are allowed to go with equipment. Making demands that bikes must follow the two triangle design, and even banning things like how you can sit on the bike (the praying Landis posture). But then they allow loads of battery powered devices like electronic shifting, power meters, race radios and data receivers.

The inconsistency is staggering and suggests on one hand they do want to stop science from diminishing an aspect of the sport, but on the other - there is too much money involved to keep it out.

We can clearly and simply separate technologies into two categories, the ones that are used to provide data and info to the rider (radio, powermeter, computers) and those used to improve the bike performances (e-shifting, materials, weight allowed,...) and deal with the two in a different way

You could also separate it into things that need an external source of power and things that don't. A pro cyclist in will be carrying four different batteries with them during a race for various things. For me, the only source of power available to a rider in a race should be the rider themselves.

 

[samhocking]

Re:

I want to see all-in attacks. I want see riders blowing and glorious comebacks.
I want to see one-to-one fights not team-to-one.
I want to see riders desperate to get a time difference, not to instantaneous GPS data on the earpiece.
In a nutshell, I want to see humans racing, not math-modeled circus.

You never will, even without power meters, because everyone already knows riding like that is the slowest way up the mountain. Even riders like Quintana and Valverde only ride like that in the last couple of km of an MTF.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

All science aspects of cycling should be banned imo.

TT bikes next.

The UCI is very strange about this. They put some arbitary limits on the weight of bikes and on how aero you are allowed to go with equipment. Making demands that bikes must follow the two triangle design, and even banning things like how you can sit on the bike (the praying Landis posture). But then they allow loads of battery powered devices like electronic shifting, power meters, race radios and data receivers.

The inconsistency is staggering and suggests on one hand they do want to stop science from diminishing an aspect of the sport, but on the other - there is too much money involved to keep it out.

Its about trying to get the balance right. I'm no fan of the UCI but there will always be disagreement as some subjectivity is involved. But banning power meters for racing would be great and a simple rule to enforce.

Once AR comes along it would be much more difficult to enforce. Within ten years the power meter info will be on a hud.

10 yrs?

Pretty sure it can be easily done today.

Any shades... could be easily adapted.
It's not like you need Hololense or Google Glasses! Showing a single figure on your glasses is a technology already available and easy to hide

Doesn't matter if AR can be done today. You still need sensors to measure power. Sensors are quite easily detected as are power cranks or hubs. That's how traction control was banned from Formula 1 in the 90s - check for sensors. Like bike motors the detection part is being made more complex than it really is.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I want to see all-in attacks. I want see riders blowing and glorious comebacks.
I want to see one-to-one fights not team-to-one.
I want to see riders desperate to get a time difference, not to instantaneous GPS data on the earpiece.
In a nutshell, I want to see humans racing, not math-modeled circus.

You never will, even without power meters, because everyone already knows riding like that is the slowest way up the mountain. Even riders like Quintana and Valverde only ride like that in the last couple of km of an MTF.

The difference is that, without power meters, if someone attacks early on a climb, the other riders can't be sure if that rider is going too hard, or if they themselves are just having a bad day.

Also, without a power meter it's impossible to know if you are going 400 watts or 420 watts in the middle of a GT. No-one can pinpoint watts so specifically, when already fatigued by days of racing. And that can easily be the difference between blowing up and not.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

I want to see all-in attacks. I want see riders blowing and glorious comebacks.
I want to see one-to-one fights not team-to-one.
I want to see riders desperate to get a time difference, not to instantaneous GPS data on the earpiece.
In a nutshell, I want to see humans racing, not math-modeled circus.

You never will, even without power meters, because everyone already knows riding like that is the slowest way up the mountain. Even riders like Quintana and Valverde only ride like that in the last couple of km of an MTF.

The difference is that, without power meters, if someone attacks early on a climb, the other riders can't be sure if that rider is going too hard, or if they themselves are just having a bad day.

Also, without a power meter it's impossible to know if you are going 400 watts or 420 watts in the middle of a GT. No-one can pinpoint watts so specifically, when already fatigued by days of racing. And that can easily be the difference between blowing up and not.

Correct! Some people have short memories or weren't following the Tour de France in 2012.

 

[huge]

Re:

End of the day if you've trained with power as most riders do, ridden the same climbs in training with power and all riders already know the quickest way up any mountain is smooth and steady anyway, the only thing stopping anyone riding like Froome is their belief cycling should be more about entertainment via continuous attacking and slowing down and counterattacking, than actually riding up the mountain faster than your rivals. At the end of the day, you cycle up the mountain using your legs. How much you want to entertain the masses but ride more slowly or with more physical stress on your body is down to riders like Quintana & Valverde. I think the balance is good. Froome's tactic added to the race, otherwise the climb was already mostly over when Quintana dropped Chaves.

What???? You seriously think they ride in a certain way to entertain the fans?? You cannot be serious.

 

[thehook]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Nibble came out against it first. So Kudos must go to him. Quintana is steadily gaining higher stature in cycling. He is now a BOSS. Him coming out against them is the right thing IMHO. AC & Valverde have as well

No PM
No HR
No Radio for teams. Only race radio. Each rider has an earpiece. Safety warnings, feed zones, etc. Relayed to ALL of them via 1 Race Radio.

 

[Cookster15]

Re: Re:

End of the day if you've trained with power as most riders do, ridden the same climbs in training with power and all riders already know the quickest way up any mountain is smooth and steady anyway, the only thing stopping anyone riding like Froome is their belief cycling should be more about entertainment via continuous attacking and slowing down and counterattacking, than actually riding up the mountain faster than your rivals. At the end of the day, you cycle up the mountain using your legs. How much you want to entertain the masses but ride more slowly or with more physical stress on your body is down to riders like Quintana & Valverde. I think the balance is good. Froome's tactic added to the race, otherwise the climb was already mostly over when Quintana dropped Chaves.

What???? You seriously think they ride in a certain way to entertain the fans?? You cannot be serious.

Half the forum thinks Professional Road Racing is WWE on wheels. Its all done for entertainment, who cares if its real :lol:

 

[Bavarianrider]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Hell yeah he is right. All electronic devices should be banned fro road cycling.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

I have always said: GET RID OF THE RADIOS AND REDUCE THE TEAMS DOWN TO 7 MEN- once those two are fixed, power meters would mean nothing...


Just remember how great was the Olympics RR

And just remember how fond everyone is of a breakaway succeeding every single day :lol:

I'm all for smaller teams in the classics but not so much in the GTs. Getting rid of comms with your DS and salary caps on teams are a much better way to tackle the issue imo

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Nairo: "let's ban stuff I don't like/understand how to use but my competitor does".

I wonder what Nairo's power meter sponsor thinks of this?

This is his bike by the way, complete with power meter:

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/tour-de-france/nairo-quintanas-canyon-ultimate-cf-slx-is-ready-to-climb/slide/2

All it suggests to me is Nairo is focused on the wrong things, as are those that think measuring power is somehow making a difference to the way race strategies and tactics play out.

They are meters, not motors. You either have the watts or you don't. That's what determines who wins the W/kg war, not the measurement of it.

It's kind of ironic that the clinic mob want all the power data made public, and another mob want it all banned.


Not attacking through a safety neutral is what should be banned Nairo, not power meters

 

[Cookster15]

Re:

Nairo: "let's ban stuff I don't like/understand how to use but my competitor does".

I wonder what Nairo's power meter sponsor thinks of this?

This is his bike by the way, complete with power meter:

http://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear/tour-de-france/nairo-quintanas-canyon-ultimate-cf-slx-is-ready-to-climb/slide/2

All it suggests to me is Nairo is focused on the wrong things, as are those that think measuring power is somehow making a difference to the way race strategies and tactics play out.

They are meters, not motors. You either have the watts or you don't. That's what determines who wins the W/kg war, not the measurement of it.

It's kind of ironic that the clinic mob want all the power data made public, and another mob want it all banned.


Not attacking through a safety neutral is what should be banned Nairo, not power meters

Well obviously Nairo is happy to forgo his power meter. Lots of straw men in your post.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

End of the day if you've trained with power as most riders do, ridden the same climbs in training with power and all riders already know the quickest way up any mountain is smooth and steady anyway, the only thing stopping anyone riding like Froome is their belief cycling should be more about entertainment via continuous attacking and slowing down and counterattacking, than actually riding up the mountain faster than your rivals. At the end of the day, you cycle up the mountain using your legs. How much you want to entertain the masses but ride more slowly or with more physical stress on your body is down to riders like Quintana & Valverde. I think the balance is good. Froome's tactic added to the race, otherwise the climb was already mostly over when Quintana dropped Chaves.

What???? You seriously think they ride in a certain way to entertain the fans?? You cannot be serious.

That's what Quintana & Valverde are essentially saying when the they're saying "Power meters take away a lot of the spectacle". The spectacle of attacking, slowing down and counter-attacking until the second to last rider have all cracked to find the winner is entertainment. If you actually wanted to ride faster, you wouldn't ride like that. When you ride a mountain, you don't need a powermeter to tell you you'll ride faster by not attacking and going into the red.

 

[Billie]

Re: Re:

All science aspects of cycling should be banned imo.

TT bikes next.

Define "TT bike"? . What about these?

riders should have to use the same bikes they use for road stages for TT's. Like Anquetil

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

I want to see all-in attacks. I want see riders blowing and glorious comebacks.
I want to see one-to-one fights not team-to-one.
I want to see riders desperate to get a time difference, not to instantaneous GPS data on the earpiece.
In a nutshell, I want to see humans racing, not math-modeled circus.

I quite agree, but I think cycliyclist must have acurate references. I agree to ban power data.