Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be banned?

[IndianCyclist]

Sky's extensive use of powermeter is expected to help their effort over long distances. They are winning TDFs but not other GTs. They got their first Monument after 6 years of failure. In contrast the Ardennes have been reduced to Sprints over the last 5 years because of Orica and Movistar. More attacking can happen only if the team size is reduced and not cause powermeters are banned.
Froome if he gets dropped from the bunch has to work extra 1-2% in an incline of 8-10% to overcome wind resistance. if there is a headwind even more. I donot see any benefit except gauging effort. Besides anybody can follow the same strategy if they want.
Cycling is not like F1 where tech plays an important part in winning.

 

[veji11]

Re:

Sky's extensive use of powermeter is expected to help their effort over long distances. They are winning TDFs but not other GTs. They got their first Monument after 6 years of failure. In contrast the Ardennes have been reduced to Sprints over the last 5 years because of Orica and Movistar. More attacking can happen only if the team size is reduced and not cause powermeters are banned.
Froome if he gets dropped from the bunch has to work extra 1-2% in an incline of 8-10% to overcome wind resistance. if there is a headwind even more. I donot see any benefit except gauging effort. Besides anybody can follow the same strategy if they want.
Cycling is not like F1 where tech plays an important part in winning.

weeeeeellll, you'd be surprised at how much british cycling disagrees with this though.

One simple example not UK related : FDJ and Pinot have considerably and consistently improved their TT performance over the last few years by training hard at it, in wind tunnels and on the tracks, but also because all these training and focus helped them codesign with their bike company Lapierre a new TT bike for this year which has had a tremendous effect : Their progress over the last few years was palpable, but the new bike led to a quality jump in performance specifically on TTs...

I wouldn't be suprised if just the gear itself represented a difference of a minute or maybe even more between best equipped and others on a GT 40kms flattish ITT... This could be as high as 3% of time gain, which in cycling is ginormous.

 

[el chava]

Re: Re:

When I see bike manufacturers dominating pro team sponsorship, it tells me there is a growing problem with attracting interest from the big end of town.

Probably, but sponsors come and go. It has always been that in cycling. Besides, when was cycling ever financed by the "big end of town"? Maybe a few teams during the Armstrong-Ullrich years, but that was an anomaly. Liquigas, Mapei, Quick Step. Not exactly uber-corporate business and some of these are still there. Although if Lampre disappears completely I will get worried.

And the cycling heartland (Italy, France, Spain (well, the Basque region), Belgium) are still suffering from the economic crisis, so money are now obviously flowing in from more, ahem, dubious sponsors like Bahrain.

I don't know how much SRAM contributing to Pro Cycling, to get back on track.

 

[veji11]

Re: Re:

When I see bike manufacturers dominating pro team sponsorship, it tells me there is a growing problem with attracting interest from the big end of town.

Probably, but sponsors come and go. It has always been that in cycling. Besides, when was cycling ever financed by the "big end of town"? Maybe a few teams during the Armstrong-Ullrich years, but that was an anomaly. Liquigas, Mapei, Quick Step. Not exactly uber-corporate business and some of these are still there. Although if Lampre disappears completely I will get worried.

And the cycling heartland (Italy, France, Spain (well, the Basque region), Belgium) are still suffering from the economic crisis, so money are now obviously flowing in from more, ahem, dubious sponsors like Bahrain.

I don't know how much SRAM contributing to Pro Cycling, to get back on track.

Fundamentally the business model of cycling is flawed : stakeholders are not cooperating, with organisers making money from TV revenue and race organising, and the actual participants depending on sponsorship deals.. Which means that they don't work together, their income channels aren't the same. This is the fundamental economic frailty of the sport.

 

[gospina]

Also no radios, no heart rate monitors, no electronic shifters, no team support. Mostly because those are other things I can't afford.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Also no radios, no heart rate monitors, no electronic shifters, no team support. Mostly because those are other things I can't afford.

I know you joke a bit, but heart rate monitors definitely have a place in cycling and racing, especially amateur (different discussion I know) as it helps avoid a potential health problem.

 

[This Charming Man]

Re: Re:

Bike racers/teams are there to win bike races. Entertainment is merely a side effect of that primary purpose. They are also there to represent their sponsors (they are after all mobile billboards). Hence I think it's an entirely valid question to ask what their power meter sponsor thinks?

One way of improving entertainment value is to bring us better data on what's going on with riders via televised telemetry, including power data.

The Tour was never primarily about winning the race, it was a pure commercial event made to sell more newspapers (and bikes). Nowadays maybe powermeters as well (but who on earth buys these things?). But if the entertainment level goes down, so goes the audience interest. And if that is the fault of powermeters they must go (I am not sure they are the reason, though).

I was watching the Giro, showing heart rates on big climbs, comparatively, I think 2005-2008, it was quite interesting. Telemetrics, good, guys like froome who have the science down, awesome, but boring, and unfair to Nario, who doesn't know how to use these devices, properly. Race Radios, they must go, too.

And how can you say that telemetry would be part of the cycling entertainment for the ordinary viewer?
Cycling is not (only) a science experiment. Not yet anyway.

 

[vedrafjord]

Of course it would be more exciting. You wouldn't get Wout Poels on the front of the biggest race of the year,4 riding at a steady 6w/kg ignoring any attacks and gradually reeling everyone back in. You wouldn't get the breakaway always being caught in hilly one day races, because the pack can make a simple maths calculation to bring them back in.

And in general, there would be a lot more doubt. Some riders use their power meter less than others, but all use them. If a rider goes on an ambitious attack, everyone will look down and realise it's not sustainable. Without power meters the doubt is there; is he going too fast or do I just have bad legs today? More doubt and uncertainty leads to moe exciting racing. It's a lot braver to let a rider go on a climb if you don't know for sure that he's going at an unsustainable pace.

You're ascribing magical powers to power meters that simply don't exist. Lanky Poels isn't going to forget how to ride threshold just because he doesn't have a power meter, especially if he trains with one, and double especially if he still gets a speedometer.

And power meters have zero relevance to bringing a break back, especially on a hilly course where descending skill comes into play. You say a "simple maths calculation" - what calculation is that?

As for knowing that another rider's attack is sustainable, surely for that you'd need to see not only *his* power meter, but his training data too?

Another point is: even if it was hard to pace yourself climbing on your own, being in a group has a natural smoothing out effect as people adjust to each others' paces. I've noticed this both cycling and running. the whole group isn't going to randomly speed up or slow down at the same time.

Banning power meters would have an extremely minimal effect on racing. I also don't want cycling going even further down the Formula One road of randomly banning things and weird gimmicky regulations. I don't understand where people get the idea that if there were no power meters or race radios, Sky's domestiques would no longer be among the strongest climbers in the peloton, or riders would suddenly start attacking from 50km out.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Of course it would be more exciting. You wouldn't get Wout Poels on the front of the biggest race of the year,4 riding at a steady 6w/kg ignoring any attacks and gradually reeling everyone back in. You wouldn't get the breakaway always being caught in hilly one day races, because the pack can make a simple maths calculation to bring them back in.

And in general, there would be a lot more doubt. Some riders use their power meter less than others, but all use them. If a rider goes on an ambitious attack, everyone will look down and realise it's not sustainable. Without power meters the doubt is there; is he going too fast or do I just have bad legs today? More doubt and uncertainty leads to moe exciting racing. It's a lot braver to let a rider go on a climb if you don't know for sure that he's going at an unsustainable pace.

You're ascribing magical powers to power meters that simply don't exist. Lanky Poels isn't going to forget how to ride threshold just because he doesn't have a power meter, especially if he trains with one, and double especially if he still gets a speedometer.

And power meters have zero relevance to bringing a break back, especially on a hilly course where descending skill comes into play. You say a "simple maths calculation" - what calculation is that?

As for knowing that another rider's attack is sustainable, surely for that you'd need to see not only *his* power meter, but his training data too?

Another point is: even if it was hard to pace yourself climbing on your own, being in a group has a natural smoothing out effect as people adjust to each others' paces. I've noticed this both cycling and running. the whole group isn't going to randomly speed up or slow down at the same time.

Banning power meters would have an extremely minimal effect on racing. I also don't want cycling going even further down the Formula One road of randomly banning things and weird gimmicky regulations. I don't understand where people get the idea that if there were no power meters or race radios, Sky's domestiques would no longer be among the strongest climbers in the peloton, or riders would suddenly start attacking from 50km out.

I disagree with every point you have made here. It's like you have never ridden with a power meter and don't really understand how they work.

 

[veji11]

Re:

Of course it would be more exciting. You wouldn't get Wout Poels on the front of the biggest race of the year,4 riding at a steady 6w/kg ignoring any attacks and gradually reeling everyone back in. You wouldn't get the breakaway always being caught in hilly one day races, because the pack can make a simple maths calculation to bring them back in.

And in general, there would be a lot more doubt. Some riders use their power meter less than others, but all use them. If a rider goes on an ambitious attack, everyone will look down and realise it's not sustainable. Without power meters the doubt is there; is he going too fast or do I just have bad legs today? More doubt and uncertainty leads to moe exciting racing. It's a lot braver to let a rider go on a climb if you don't know for sure that he's going at an unsustainable pace.

You're ascribing magical powers to power meters that simply don't exist. Lanky Poels isn't going to forget how to ride threshold just because he doesn't have a power meter, especially if he trains with one, and double especially if he still gets a speedometer.

And power meters have zero relevance to bringing a break back, especially on a hilly course where descending skill comes into play. You say a "simple maths calculation" - what calculation is that?

As for knowing that another rider's attack is sustainable, surely for that you'd need to see not only *his* power meter, but his training data too?

Another point is: even if it was hard to pace yourself climbing on your own, being in a group has a natural smoothing out effect as people adjust to each others' paces. I've noticed this both cycling and running. the whole group isn't going to randomly speed up or slow down at the same time.

Banning power meters would have an extremely minimal effect on racing. I also don't want cycling going even further down the Formula One road of randomly banning things and weird gimmicky regulations. I don't understand where people get the idea that if there were no power meters or race radios, Sky's domestiques would no longer be among the strongest climbers in the peloton, or riders would suddenly start attacking from 50km out.

Indeed power meters are by no means the biggest issue : dominant teams and therefore number of riders (changeable fairly easily) and salary cap (very very hard to change) are more significant. Nevertheless no race radio nor direct data would help, even marginally.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

Of course it would be more exciting. You wouldn't get Wout Poels on the front of the biggest race of the year,4 riding at a steady 6w/kg ignoring any attacks and gradually reeling everyone back in. You wouldn't get the breakaway always being caught in hilly one day races, because the pack can make a simple maths calculation to bring them back in.

And in general, there would be a lot more doubt. Some riders use their power meter less than others, but all use them. If a rider goes on an ambitious attack, everyone will look down and realise it's not sustainable. Without power meters the doubt is there; is he going too fast or do I just have bad legs today? More doubt and uncertainty leads to moe exciting racing. It's a lot braver to let a rider go on a climb if you don't know for sure that he's going at an unsustainable pace.

You're ascribing magical powers to power meters that simply don't exist. Lanky Poels isn't going to forget how to ride threshold just because he doesn't have a power meter, especially if he trains with one, and double especially if he still gets a speedometer.

And power meters have zero relevance to bringing a break back, especially on a hilly course where descending skill comes into play. You say a "simple maths calculation" - what calculation is that?

As for knowing that another rider's attack is sustainable, surely for that you'd need to see not only *his* power meter, but his training data too?

Another point is: even if it was hard to pace yourself climbing on your own, being in a group has a natural smoothing out effect as people adjust to each others' paces. I've noticed this both cycling and running. the whole group isn't going to randomly speed up or slow down at the same time.

Banning power meters would have an extremely minimal effect on racing. I also don't want cycling going even further down the Formula One road of randomly banning things and weird gimmicky regulations. I don't understand where people get the idea that if there were no power meters or race radios, Sky's domestiques would no longer be among the strongest climbers in the peloton, or riders would suddenly start attacking from 50km out.

I disagree with every point you have made here. It's like you have never ridden with a power meter and don't really understand how they work.

If you disagree then explain why.

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Re:

...
One way of improving entertainment value is to bring us better data on what's going on with riders via televised telemetry, including power data.

That would bore the hell out of me to be honest.

Plus it would make cycling even more like some sort of Formula one which is the opposite of what is needed ! More mystery, more uncertainty, more focus on the individual riders themselves, less on the team, the data, the mechanical...

Join my fixed wheel campaign

Chris Froome agrees with you KB!!! Let's make this happen

 

[TomLPC]

https://vid.me/GBu2

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

https://vid.me/GBu2

He really looks like an alien in that video :lol:

 

[carton]

Re:

https://vid.me/GBu2

Loved that. Although fixies would be more fun than singlespeeds on those alpine descents. As Contador would say, just think of the crash footage. That sells.

No gears and no team mechanics and team doctors too. Make it like the early Tours. Or the Transcontinental.

 

[luckyboy]

Re:

https://vid.me/GBu2

 

[gospina]

Re: Re:

Also no radios, no heart rate monitors, no electronic shifters, no team support. Mostly because those are other things I can't afford.

I know you joke a bit, but heart rate monitors definitely have a place in cycling and racing, especially amateur (different discussion I know) as it helps avoid a potential health problem.

For me, I have a garmin screen that only has two things on it: Power and Heart Rate. I use that on long climbs. I want to make sure I stay under my thresholds at all times to give me the best change at PR'ng that strava segment.
Since my heart rate monitor stopped working, I have been going on power only. If I ride on "Feeling", i blow my load halfway up the climb

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Re:

Technology is turning racing into robotics. I'd love to see it kicked out of racing. Fine for prep.

If that's the case back to steel bikes, wool jerseys and no helmets. Sport needs to be seen to move with the times, next big leap for cycling is AR.

Excuse my ignorance but what is AR ?

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

Technology is turning racing into robotics. I'd love to see it kicked out of racing. Fine for prep.

If that's the case back to steel bikes, wool jerseys and no helmets. Sport needs to be seen to move with the times, next big leap for cycling is AR.

Excuse my ignorance but what is AR ?

Augmented reality.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Re: Re:

Technology is turning racing into robotics. I'd love to see it kicked out of racing. Fine for prep.

If that's the case back to steel bikes, wool jerseys and no helmets. Sport needs to be seen to move with the times, next big leap for cycling is AR.

Excuse my ignorance but what is AR ?

Augmented reality.

Thanks, at least I know what to google now

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

The three areas that seem to be of most concern to fans are power meters, radios and smaller teams. My guess is you can definitely get one of these three proposals through the UCI - And it will probably be power meters.

And thats the one that is least likely to change anything.

Doubt teams will give up radios and they want 9 rider teams in GT - I suspect smaller teams will lead to less aggressive racing.

 

[gospina]

Re: Re:

Technology is turning racing into robotics. I'd love to see it kicked out of racing. Fine for prep.

If that's the case back to steel bikes, wool jerseys and no helmets. Sport needs to be seen to move with the times, next big leap for cycling is AR.

Excuse my ignorance but what is AR ?

Augmented reality. I already do this. I catch pokemon on my bike. Wait, maybe that's not what the OP meant.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

Technology is turning racing into robotics. I'd love to see it kicked out of racing. Fine for prep.

If that's the case back to steel bikes, wool jerseys and no helmets. Sport needs to be seen to move with the times, next big leap for cycling is AR.

Excuse my ignorance but what is AR ?

Augmented reality.

Thanks, at least I know what to google now

Stuff like Zwift

 

[DBotero]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Well,it looks like Valverde is backtracking a bit on this subject and i can't blame him for doing it.

Valverde was also about the ongoing issue of power meters and he claimed that his comments "had been taken out of context. Nobody said they were bad, or anything like that. Simply I wanted to say that with them, everything is much more controlled - breakaways, performance - but I'm not saying they're bad, not in the slightest."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vuelta-a-espana-quintana-takes-it-steady-after-losing-mountain-duel/

 

[Brullnux]

Re: Power meters: is Quintana right that they should be bann

Well,it looks like Valverde is backtracking a bit on this subject and i can't blame him for doing it.

Valverde was also about the ongoing issue of power meters and he claimed that his comments "had been taken out of context. Nobody said they were bad, or anything like that. Simply I wanted to say that with them, everything is much more controlled - breakaways, performance - but I'm not saying they're bad, not in the slightest."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/vuelta-a-espana-quintana-takes-it-steady-after-losing-mountain-duel/

Come on Alejandro, you are so much better than this. Stand up for what you said.