- Aug 31, 2012
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Based on the absence of some of the individual specific evidence of dirtiness we have for the other two, such as a positive test or the badzilla scam.
Being the most likely to be least dirty doesn't mean he's clean. It's just recognising that the evidence that he's not is of a more general nature: The costs and benefits of doping, the low chance of getting caught, the improbability of being better than dopers if clean, the historical incidence of doping, etc. For Froome and Contador, we have additional evidence on top of that.
Being the most likely to be least dirty doesn't mean he's clean. It's just recognising that the evidence that he's not is of a more general nature: The costs and benefits of doping, the low chance of getting caught, the improbability of being better than dopers if clean, the historical incidence of doping, etc. For Froome and Contador, we have additional evidence on top of that.
- Aug 31, 2012
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- Apr 16, 2009
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And that probability might be low as well, but at least better than the other two.
And if we think about the probability of being least dirty we would have to define the drugs which we would be getting into muddier terrain. IMHO.
Maybe the probability of being clean. Maybe not least dirty.Netserk said:
And that probability might be low as well, but at least better than the other two.
And if we think about the probability of being least dirty we would have to define the drugs which we would be getting into muddier terrain. IMHO.
- Apr 16, 2009
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Not even's Contador's performances nowadays. Contador would be clean today. Accusations on Quintana will have to be other than performances itself. The only one that could be stepping in illegal terrain is Froome. Not even Nibali. So you have a problem on pointing the finger today based on performances.
Not really.Benotti69 said:
Not even's Contador's performances nowadays. Contador would be clean today. Accusations on Quintana will have to be other than performances itself. The only one that could be stepping in illegal terrain is Froome. Not even Nibali. So you have a problem on pointing the finger today based on performances.
- May 26, 2010
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Anyone who wins a 3 week race in modern pro cycling deserves a finger pointed at them!
Contador clean today! Really i dont see that! He aint finishing races 100th plus place behind all those dopers!
Nibali had a massive transformation in week 3 of the Il Giro!!!!
Escarabajo said:
Anyone who wins a 3 week race in modern pro cycling deserves a finger pointed at them!
Contador clean today! Really i dont see that! He aint finishing races 100th plus place behind all those dopers!
Nibali had a massive transformation in week 3 of the Il Giro!!!!
- Apr 16, 2009
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- Apr 16, 2009
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You said pointing the finger based on performance. You need to prove it based on numbers. That is not the case.
The only red flag is PSM from Froome.
Again I am not saying that they are not doping, just that pointing out at the performance numbers solely is not enough to point the finger at doping with certainty.
That is not based on performance. That is out of the blues.Benotti69 said:
You said pointing the finger based on performance. You need to prove it based on numbers. That is not the case.
The only red flag is PSM from Froome.
Again I am not saying that they are not doping, just that pointing out at the performance numbers solely is not enough to point the finger at doping with certainty.
The only red flag is Froome's PSM ? Really??
PSM , 1st climb of TdF, Froome 6.09 W/kg
Alpe, after 3 weeks of TdF, Quintana 6.37 W/Kg
seriously, at least check the facts before or are you simply posting intentional misinformation ?
Based only on that 2015 Alpe ascent time Quintana is doped to the eyeballs. What is sad though ... in 2016 Quintana is even more doped, 1998 style. 51km/h average flat ITT for 55kg climber who never excelled at ITT's?
Quintana probably has a lot of protection from ASO so 2016 is the year of the full 200% full ***.
PSM , 1st climb of TdF, Froome 6.09 W/kg
Alpe, after 3 weeks of TdF, Quintana 6.37 W/Kg
seriously, at least check the facts before or are you simply posting intentional misinformation ?
Based only on that 2015 Alpe ascent time Quintana is doped to the eyeballs. What is sad though ... in 2016 Quintana is even more doped, 1998 style. 51km/h average flat ITT for 55kg climber who never excelled at ITT's?
Quintana probably has a lot of protection from ASO so 2016 is the year of the full 200% full ***.
- Apr 6, 2015
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Is your certitude really justified by the known facts? Quintana is probably the best pure climber of his generation; his 430 W effort in Alpe d'Huez is within his realm of possibility.
There's not a single sentence in the quoted section that is true. The RdS ITT was not all that flat; Quintana has been a pretty good time-trialist, particularly in hilly TTs, for a while now; and 51 km/h is not all that impressive in such a short TT.
That is just ridiculous speculation on your part.
alexandr_PO said:
Is your certitude really justified by the known facts? Quintana is probably the best pure climber of his generation; his 430 W effort in Alpe d'Huez is within his realm of possibility.
There's not a single sentence in the quoted section that is true. The RdS ITT was not all that flat; Quintana has been a pretty good time-trialist, particularly in hilly TTs, for a while now; and 51 km/h is not all that impressive in such a short TT.
That is just ridiculous speculation on your part.
- May 26, 2010
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Christophe Bassons said it with (i paraphrase) "small climbers beating TTers and TTers climbing mountains with climbers!"
The ridiculous speculation is that somehow a rider can win a 3 week race clean! How does he beat dopers? That is outrageous!
AlexNYC said:
Christophe Bassons said it with (i paraphrase) "small climbers beating TTers and TTers climbing mountains with climbers!"
The ridiculous speculation is that somehow a rider can win a 3 week race clean! How does he beat dopers? That is outrageous!
- Apr 6, 2015
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First of all, I haven't said Quintana is clean; I really have no idea if he is or not. His Alpe d'Huez climb last year is certainly suspicious from a purely data-driven analysis perspective, but that is still pretty far from being conclusive proof in my opinion.
About the Chritophe Bassons quote, it doesn't apply to Quintana. Call me when he wins a pancake-flat TT against really tough competitors.
Benotti69 said:
First of all, I haven't said Quintana is clean; I really have no idea if he is or not. His Alpe d'Huez climb last year is certainly suspicious from a purely data-driven analysis perspective, but that is still pretty far from being conclusive proof in my opinion.
About the Chritophe Bassons quote, it doesn't apply to Quintana. Call me when he wins a pancake-flat TT against really tough competitors.
- Apr 16, 2009
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Those are your numbers not mine. I see you are new to the forum. Welcome. There are plenty of threads that talk about these numbers. There is one that is a sticky that goes into detail on that. For Quintana his numbers are floating around 6-6.1 watts/kg in my calculations. Annecy in 2013 was tricky because he sucked wheels most of the trajectory. But numbers were a bit higher (6.1-6.2 kg/watts). The climb was 3 km shorter as well. So effort is shorter.alexandr_PO said:
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But on the flip side, it wasn't within the 20 fastest times in history, and he was into the wind maybe for 3km. Also, even though he had exerted himself in the break and put in a few attacks to drop his companions, that day Pinot was only 22 and 34 seconds slower than a fully sheltered Froome in 2013 and 2015, respectively. So if we're going to use that brush the lines are going to be hard to draw out.
I mean, if you're absolutely convinced that Froome is currently doping, then I agree that it's hard to see how Quintana beats him clean, however "naturally gifted" he might be.Benotti69 said:
But on the flip side, it wasn't within the 20 fastest times in history, and he was into the wind maybe for 3km. Also, even though he had exerted himself in the break and put in a few attacks to drop his companions, that day Pinot was only 22 and 34 seconds slower than a fully sheltered Froome in 2013 and 2015, respectively. So if we're going to use that brush the lines are going to be hard to draw out.
- Apr 16, 2009
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Benotti, are you implying that is humanly impossible to ride a three week Tour clean?
He disappears to his house where his wife and family lives. He is guilty of that, spending time with his family in his hometown.
He disappears to his house where his wife and family lives. He is guilty of that, spending time with his family in his hometown.
- May 26, 2010
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I am implying that it is impossible to finish top 10, 20, 30 maybe top 100 clean. Why? The doping culture has not gone away. Teams with multiple doctors, DS who won using doping, the whole pro sport has people who won, and earned a living by doping. Nothing has changed that one iota!
Kimmage, Bassons and a few others finished 3 weeks clean. But they were never had snowdrop in hells chance of winning.
Doping is part of a professionals life and if it is not they are gone from the sport very quickly.
I bet Anquetil would loved to have raced the 30 odd days before a TdF instead of 200......
He can spend his time doing what he wants.
Escarabajo said:
I am implying that it is impossible to finish top 10, 20, 30 maybe top 100 clean. Why? The doping culture has not gone away. Teams with multiple doctors, DS who won using doping, the whole pro sport has people who won, and earned a living by doping. Nothing has changed that one iota!
Kimmage, Bassons and a few others finished 3 weeks clean. But they were never had snowdrop in hells chance of winning.
Doping is part of a professionals life and if it is not they are gone from the sport very quickly.
I bet Anquetil would loved to have raced the 30 odd days before a TdF instead of 200......
He can spend his time doing what he wants.
- Nov 7, 2010
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Even if he were the most naturally gifted cyclist of all time, and could theoretically match the power outputs of the elite riders in the main EPO era without blood doping; putting out those kind of numbers towards the end of a three week tour suggests, at the very least, a high probablity of doping for recovery.
Even if those numbers ae correct, you don't consider 6-6.1w/kg to be a red flag; particularly in the third week of a GT?Escarabajo said:
Even if he were the most naturally gifted cyclist of all time, and could theoretically match the power outputs of the elite riders in the main EPO era without blood doping; putting out those kind of numbers towards the end of a three week tour suggests, at the very least, a high probablity of doping for recovery.
- May 9, 2014
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Doubt that. If Froome Quintana Contador etc stopped doping and lost ~10%, they'd still be capable of top 20 finishes, possibly top 10
Benotti69 said:
Doubt that. If Froome Quintana Contador etc stopped doping and lost ~10%, they'd still be capable of top 20 finishes, possibly top 10
- Mar 14, 2016
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I read somewhere that the physical difference between the winner and the lanterne rouge of the Tour is just 3% on average.
- May 9, 2014
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In terms of total time. But anyone decent could hang on to the peloton on the flat, which is most of the time. So most of the time losses would be on mountain stages, and if you just take the fact that most of the time losses would only be on mountain stages, you end up with much much more than a 3% difference between the winner and the lanterne rouge.
If the top guys didn't dope and lost 10%, they'd be able to stick with the peloton until the final climb (let's say 40 minute effort), so you lose about 4 mins without doping.
CheckMyPecs said:
In terms of total time. But anyone decent could hang on to the peloton on the flat, which is most of the time. So most of the time losses would be on mountain stages, and if you just take the fact that most of the time losses would only be on mountain stages, you end up with much much more than a 3% difference between the winner and the lanterne rouge.
If the top guys didn't dope and lost 10%, they'd be able to stick with the peloton until the final climb (let's say 40 minute effort), so you lose about 4 mins without doping.
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