Quintana??

[hrotha]

Why are you discussing this in the Clinic?

 

[veganrob]

If you have a problem dude, report it.

And maybe I was talking about marginal gains spinach. FFS

 

[observer]

I wonder if the tests Quintana is having will reveal his own version of bilharzia, thus leading him to have crazy adaptive physiology.

 

[Brullnux]

That awkward moment when the blood bag arrives a month too late

 

[Amnes2015]

great recovery skills from Quintana , pulling in 100km's break like there's no tomorrow with TdF in his legs. But that's normal, he also does Alpe records in last day of the tour. A victory for the clean cycling imo.

Also helped that he could be teached by the great Alejandro, he has a great future.

 

[sniper]

Re:

That awkward moment when the blood bag arrives a month too late

exactemundo.


the way this is developing, you get a sense that the results are rigged.
Froome was going to win the tour.
Quintana the vuelta.

 

[sniper]

Re:

.............surely? recovery is not so difficult....with so few race days each year for star riders....

Mark L

results rigged/shared......................nice one!

yep, never happened before.
so tell me how do you think Quintana was able to peak so nicely for the Vuelta, but not for the TdF.
http://www.sportalnz.gearbox.performgroup.com/article/news/nairo-quintana-targets-tour-de-france-after-volta-a-catalunya-victory/le3r23q42mpo158gx8p1gmgnv

 

[Volderke]

Re:

But that's normal, he also does Alpe records in last day of the tour.

Please back up your claims with facts, but because I enjoy separating bollocks from truth, I will do that for you:
http://www.climbing-records.com/2013/07/nairo-quintana-sets-great-time-on-alpe.html

Slower than some far smaller deities...

 

[jilbiker]

What was the mysterious illness that prevented Quintana performing at TDF? And now it seems like he skipped TDF entirely, no tiredness, superb recovery. Wow. Have Froome and Quintana redefined physiology? How can they be operating with almost no downslide after the TDF, and note that Froome who some may claim is showing a bit downslide had Olympics in between. There has got be something else different from BB that these guys are using. BB cannot keep you going strong for 2 months.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

What was the mysterious illness that prevented Quintana performing at TDF? And now it seems like he skipped TDF entirely, no tiredness, superb recovery. Wow. Have Froome and Quintana redefined physiology? How can they be operating with almost no downslide after the TDF, and note that Froome who some may claim is showing a bit downslide had Olympics in between. There has got be something else different from BB that these guys are using. BB cannot keep you going strong for 2 months.

I doubt Quintana is on anything exceptional or new. Pantani in 1998 maintained a ridiculous peak from Giro to Tour on EPO and BBs, and Contador has done consecutive GTs to a pretty high level. Quintana's seems to me to be pretty much in their mould from a physiologoical aspect. Froome's obviously a bit more weird with his physique and history, but, as regularly alluded to, AICAR seems to fit the bill.

At the Tour it was probably some non-clinic reason for his poor performance. Even the best dopers and biggest natural talents get viruses or misjudge their training load at times.

 

[jilbiker]

Re: Re:

What was the mysterious illness that prevented Quintana performing at TDF? And now it seems like he skipped TDF entirely, no tiredness, superb recovery. Wow. Have Froome and Quintana redefined physiology? How can they be operating with almost no downslide after the TDF, and note that Froome who some may claim is showing a bit downslide had Olympics in between. There has got be something else different from BB that these guys are using. BB cannot keep you going strong for 2 months.

I doubt Quintana is on anything exceptional or new. Pantani in 1998 maintained a ridiculous peak from Giro to Tour on EPO and BBs, and Contador has done consecutive GTs to a pretty high level. Quintana's seems to me to be pretty much in their mould from a physiologoical aspect. Froome's obviously a bit more weird with his physique and history, but, as regularly alluded to, AICAR seems to fit the bill.

At the Tour it was probably some non-clinic reason for his poor performance. Even the best dopers and biggest natural talents get viruses or misjudge their training load at times.

Just read about AICAR
http://cyclingtips.com/2013/04/the-new-epo-gw1516-aicar-and-their-use-in-cycling/

It seems to fit the bill, suddenly becoming a top climber.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

aicar is a ridiculous thing. even ferrari said it doesn't work and besides they already have a test for it for 5 years. easily detected and several riders have been caught.

your claims are hilarious though here. any sources for quintana and froome being on same level as tour? like what are the wattages from the climbs?

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

aicar is a ridiculous thing. even ferrari said it doesn't work and besides they already have a test for it for 5 years. easily detected and several riders have been caught.

your claims are hilarious though here. any sources for quintana and froome being on same level as tour? like what are the wattages from the climbs?

Sorry, which riders were caught? Name me 1 remotely half decent rider.

Because saying that busting a guatemalan semi pro for doping is a deterrent for AICAR is like saying that busting some 18 year old hippy with 3 hash brownies at the airport is a deterrent for international drug trafficking.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

aicar is a ridiculous thing. even ferrari said it doesn't work and besides they already have a test for it for 5 years. easily detected and several riders have been caught.

your claims are hilarious though here. any sources for quintana and froome being on same level as tour? like what are the wattages from the climbs?

They have tests for lots of dope. :lol: ask Armstrong

Quintana is pure natural, pure talent......................with lots of dope.

 

[sniper]

I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

 

[DFA123]

Plus AICAR is naturally occuring in humans; the problem isn't necessarily testing for it, but establishing a baseline which will stand up to scutiny/legal challenges. If the baseline is something as arbitary as the 50% HCT rule; then it leaves a lot of scope for most riders to use it pretty extensively, while officially being clean. Doping while not doping.

Also rumours of AICAR in cycling have been around for a long time now; there's a pretty good chance that other peptides have over-taken it now and are not being tested for. Probably something cheaper and dirtier to produce.

 

[Brian Butterfield]

Oh to be a drugs tester

standing unwanted at so many front doors,
sitting unwanted at so many kitchen tables,
slipping away quietly defeated

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

Plus AICAR is naturally occuring in humans; the problem isn't necessarily testing for it, but establishing a baseline which will stand up to scutiny/legal challenges. If the baseline is something as arbitary as the 50% HCT rule; then it leaves a lot of scope for most riders to use it pretty extensively, while officially being clean. Doping while not doping.

Also rumours of AICAR in cycling have been around for a long time now; there's a pretty good chance that other peptides have over-taken it now and are not being tested for. Probably something cheaper and dirtier to produce.

I would guess small molecule agonists rather than peptides due to ease of synthesis, but I think your general premise is right. A lot of different chemical structures can act on the same metabolic pathways as AICAR, including a number of natural products like Resveratrol and EGCG.

 

[burning]

Re:

great recovery skills from Quintana , pulling in 100km's break like there's no tomorrow with TdF in his legs. But that's normal, he also does Alpe records in last day of the tour. A victory for the clean cycling imo.

Also helped that he could be teached by the great Alejandro, he has a great future.

Do you have anything to say about the full genius performance of Froome?

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

great recovery skills from Quintana , pulling in 100km's break like there's no tomorrow with TdF in his legs. But that's normal, he also does Alpe records in last day of the tour. A victory for the clean cycling imo.

Also helped that he could be teached by the great Alejandro, he has a great future.

Do you have anything to say about the full genius performance of Froome?

This is a Quintana thread, Froome has more than one thread all to himself.

 

[DanielSong39]

Looks like whatever he had on stages 8, 10, and 15 is running low...

Does he go for one last dose for stage 20? Or does he gamble that he will have enough to hold on?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Re:

I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica

I am sorry Ryo, but Colombians don't dope, so please stop, please. They are altitude natives.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Re: Re:

I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica

These riders you mention were caught for GW501516 tough, not AICAR. There is no recorded positive for it (that i know of).
It also seems difficult to test for since it's naturally occuring in the body, you need to set a threshold level, and we know where that leads... microdosing yai! (maybe not even so "micro" if it's as high as e.g. the 4/1 T/E ratio for the testosterone test)
GW501516, that's another story, i can't understand how people thougth that this would be undetectable...

 

[Nomad]

Re: Re:

I don't remember one single aicar positive.
One reason being they don't test for it.
Yes there is a test, but the baseline is controversial. Besides, I believe the only lab that can test for it is cologne, but to my knowledge UNI have not used that lab in a long time. Not since cookson cooking is in charge.
I'm happy to be corrected though.

several riders were caught on it, even in world tour like miguel ubeto from lampre, also there is marlon perez, a colombian who was caught in costa rica

Both those riders you referenced tested positive for GW501516...not AICAR.

Both GW501516 & AICAR are metabolic modulators, but are different chemically. GW501516 has a very long elimination rate for one; upwards to 40 days for a single 15mg dose can be detected. GW501516 is also very toxic causing neoplastic pathology in rats during the clinical trials (one reason why it didn't make it past the animal trials). AICAR is difficult to detect as it's produced endogenously. WADA currently uses a threshold measure to detect possible use of AICAR. To date, I'm not aware of any AICAR threshold positives (I'm sure it would be big news in the cycling world). Here's an excellent study on both substances (metabolic pathways, elimination rates, health risks, etc.):

> J Physiol Pharmacol. 2014 Aug;65(4):469-76.

Metabolic modulators of the exercise response: doping control analysis of an agonist of the peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor δ (GW501516) and 5-aminoimidazole-4-carboxamide ribonucleotide (AICAR).

Pokrywka A1, Cholbinski P, Kaliszewski P, Kowalczyk K, Koncza

I recall the CIRC report from last year stating that AICAR was popular in the peloton. And quantities of AICAR & TB 500 were found in the possession of Colombian doping doctor Alberto Beltran when he was arrested in Spain in 2013...so it's probably out there.