Quintana??

[difdauf]

Re: Re:

The cycling motor has been out for many years now, and yes, some of the top names have used it.

Is it a step or twop below using PED's? That is a relative statement, and it depends on the individual. Some would stoop as low as to use a motor no problem in competition.

I am convinced Froome has used one, just from the drastic change in cadence on some of his attacks. That to me has always been the tell-tale sign. But we'll never know because the UCI was never interested in trying to catch him out.

Which top name has used a motor and how do you have this infrormation?
I don't think anyone is using a motor, it's so easily detected...

Why are UCI testing so few bikes?

If it got out about riders having motors it would kill the sport.

UCI dont want to catch anyone, but at the same time they have to be seen to be checking to make sure the public think there are none because of checks.

Dope testing numbers in Spain has gone down year on year since 2012.

No one has ever been found with an engine in a pro race, it's all based on a rumour and a youtube video hence the low controls.
You guys really think that someone can win a Tour or a sprint with a **** engine and get away with it? I think it's just clueless to think top riders are using an engine, so easily detectable. There's no way of escaping, no microdosing ecc, you can't possibly pass the test with any mean. If you have an engine and they test you, you are done.
Also there would be no "individual doping" the team would always be involved, you can't just sneak an engine in a bike with your team not knowing, mechanics would know. So the sanctions for the team would really be a big deterrent.

Agree. I don't think any GC guys would be stupid enough to cross the line with an engine. that would make him the most ridiculous sportsman of all time and destroy the whole team for something so easy to check, no worth. Obviously Froome would have prefered to finish 2nd at PSM than to cross the line with a motor bike.

If someone wants to do it, it would be more like taking a fake bike for the easy middle part of the race and to change for the official one for the end with the excuse of switching for a mountain bike. So the benefit would be to finish the race a bit more fresh. Not sure it can make a big difference on a stage like PSM.

 

[adamfo]

Re:

The cycling motor has been out for many years now, and yes, some of the top names have used it.

Is it a step or twop below using PED's? That is a relative statement, and it depends on the individual. Some would stoop as low as to use a motor no problem in competition.

I am convinced Froome has used one, just from the drastic change in cadence on some of his attacks. That to me has always been the tell-tale sign. But we'll never know because the UCI was never interested in trying to catch him out.

Actually, Froome's bike was inspected after 3 stages during the Tour.
Sky along with 2 other teams had all their machines tested after the team TT. The BB was removed and an endoscope probe pushed into the tubing.
Sounds like you have convinced yourself of something without any evidence

 

[flying_plum]

I'm curious about these motors. I mean, no doubt they exist, and quite possibly there are ways of using them on televised and closely-scrutinised races without getting caught at the end (swapping bikes, clever use of bidons etc), but, I'm never sure about the psychology. I mean, doping is cheating, but it's clear that the riders themselves have managed to rationalise it so that they are not cheating in their minds - and a big part of that is the fact that they still train hard. Now, there is also the rationale that 'everyone's doing it', so perhaps this prisoner's dilemma could apply to motors as well, but I wonder if the riders themselves would see this as 'really' cheating, in a way that they have somehow convinced themselves that doping is not? I'm not making a lot of sense...does anyone understand what I'm wittering on about?

 

[adamfo]

If Vayer uses a standard weight of 70Kg in his Tour calculations bellow does this mean Quintana's figures are an underestimate ?
His Tour average figure (413) is already higher than Froome's (410) as well as his maximum (430 vs 419)

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re:

I'm curious about these motors. I mean, no doubt they exist, and quite possibly there are ways of using them on televised and closely-scrutinised races without getting caught at the end (swapping bikes, clever use of bidons etc), but, I'm never sure about the psychology. I mean, doping is cheating, but it's clear that the riders themselves have managed to rationalise it so that they are not cheating in their minds - and a big part of that is the fact that they still train hard. Now, there is also the rationale that 'everyone's doing it', so perhaps this prisoner's dilemma could apply to motors as well, but I wonder if the riders themselves would see this as 'really' cheating, in a way that they have somehow convinced themselves that doping is not? I'm not making a lot of sense...does anyone understand what I'm wittering on about?

I understand and I assume you're right about the majority of riders. However I'm pretty sure there must be pro's who dont care about "rationalising so they are not cheating". They will simply do anything to win, even cheating.

 

[bikenrrd]

Re:

If Vayer uses a standard weight of 70Kg in his Tour calculations bellow does this mean Quintana's figures are an underestimate ?
His Tour average figure (413) is already higher than Froome's (410) as well as his maximum (430 vs 419)

I'm guessing that he calculates the VAM, converts that into a W/kg then multiplies by 70 to get a power rating.
A very simplistic calculation to get an answer that is easy to understand - an absolute power measure.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

If Vayer uses a standard weight of 70Kg in his Tour calculations bellow does this mean Quintana's figures are an underestimate ?
His Tour average figure (413) is already higher than Froome's (410) as well as his maximum (430 vs 419)

I'm guessing that he calculates the VAM, converts that into a W/kg then multiplies by 70 to get a power rating.
A very simplistic calculation to get an answer that is easy to understand - an absolute power measure.

And thus, by very simple mathematical calculation, you can see Quintana's power is overestimated, not the optimistic underestimation hoped for by the Sky fan.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

This thread is so pathetically short because Sky haven't been caught doping. Yet. And that's much more important then Quintana's exciting numbers.

Worthless zoomerism.

 

[the sceptic]

This thread is so pathetically short because Sky haven't been caught doping. Yet. And that's much more important then Quintana's exciting numbers.

Worthless zoomerism.

Agree, Sky's doping is a lot more damaging to the sport than Quintana.

 

[42x16ss]

This thread is so pathetically short because Sky haven't been caught doping. Yet. And that's much more important then Quintana's exciting numbers.

Worthless zoomerism.

This thread is so "pathetically short" because Quintana showed ridiculous climbing talent from his early teens.

Then he completely destroyed what was probably the most stacked Tour d'Lavenir since it became an age limited race (2010).

As soon as he entered the pro ranks Quintana was climbing with the best in the 2nd and 3rd weeks of the 2012 Vuelta, climbing better than Valverde. After the 2013 Pais Vasco, even Brailsford could see that he was the one guy Froome really had to worry about at the TdF.

Sure, he rides for a shady team, but which ones aren't? Lastly, Quintana hasn't had a ridiculous mid career transformation, and more importantly, deluded fans and journos like Walsh trying to defend one.

 

[Archibald]

This thread is so pathetically short because Sky haven't been caught doping. Yet. And that's much more important then Quintana's exciting numbers.

Worthless zoomerism.

This thread is so "pathetically short" because Quintana showed ridiculous climbing talent from his early teens.

Then he completely destroyed what was probably the most stacked Tour d'Lavenir since it became an age limited race (2010).

As soon as he entered the pro ranks Quintana was climbing with the best in the 2nd and 3rd weeks of the 2012 Vuelta, climbing better than Valverde. After the 2013 Pais Vasco, even Brailsford could see that he was the one guy Froome really had to worry about at the TdF.

Sure, he rides for a shady team, but which ones aren't? Lastly, Quintana hasn't had a ridiculous mid career transformation, and more importantly, deluded fans and journos like Walsh trying to defend one.

who knows, maybe "I'm home with my family" is just marginal gains code for "using better pillows" and "not eating nutella"

 

[42x16ss]

This thread is so pathetically short because Sky haven't been caught doping. Yet. And that's much more important then Quintana's exciting numbers.

Worthless zoomerism.

This thread is so "pathetically short" because Quintana showed ridiculous climbing talent from his early teens.

Then he completely destroyed what was probably the most stacked Tour d'Lavenir since it became an age limited race (2010).

As soon as he entered the pro ranks Quintana was climbing with the best in the 2nd and 3rd weeks of the 2012 Vuelta, climbing better than Valverde. After the 2013 Pais Vasco, even Brailsford could see that he was the one guy Froome really had to worry about at the TdF.

Sure, he rides for a shady team, but which ones aren't? Lastly, Quintana hasn't had a ridiculous mid career transformation, and more importantly, deluded fans and journos like Walsh trying to defend one.

who knows, maybe "I'm home with my family" is just marginal gains code for "using better pillows" and "not eating nutella"

For sure, training at that altitude, somewhere that remote is probably a great way to throw off the bio passport and any team run by Unzue is suspicious but someone with Quintana's pedigree is never going to get as much attention as riders with huge mid career explosions from nowhere.

 

[sniper]

This thread is so pathetically short because Sky haven't been caught doping. Yet. And that's much more important then Quintana's exciting numbers.

Worthless zoomerism.

This thread is so "pathetically short" because Quintana showed ridiculous climbing talent from his early teens.

Then he completely destroyed what was probably the most stacked Tour d'Lavenir since it became an age limited race (2010).

As soon as he entered the pro ranks Quintana was climbing with the best in the 2nd and 3rd weeks of the 2012 Vuelta, climbing better than Valverde. After the 2013 Pais Vasco, even Brailsford could see that he was the one guy Froome really had to worry about at the TdF.

Sure, he rides for a shady team, but which ones aren't? Lastly, Quintana hasn't had a ridiculous mid career transformation, and more importantly, deluded fans and journos like Walsh trying to defend one.

who knows, maybe "I'm home with my family" is just marginal gains code for "using better pillows" and "not eating nutella"

For sure, training at that altitude, somewhere that remote is probably a great way to throw off the bio passport and any team run by Unzue is suspicious but someone with Quintana's pedigree is never going to get as much attention as riders with huge mid career explosions from nowhere.

nicely said.

he's a pretty normal guy. A doper sure, but not one who insults the brain by attributing a midlife tranformation to going gluten free. Haven't seen him sucking the life out of an inhaler either.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

I'm curious about these motors. I mean, no doubt they exist, and quite possibly there are ways of using them on televised and closely-scrutinised races without getting caught at the end (swapping bikes, clever use of bidons etc), but, I'm never sure about the psychology. I mean, doping is cheating, but it's clear that the riders themselves have managed to rationalise it so that they are not cheating in their minds - and a big part of that is the fact that they still train hard. Now, there is also the rationale that 'everyone's doing it', so perhaps this prisoner's dilemma could apply to motors as well, but I wonder if the riders themselves would see this as 'really' cheating, in a way that they have somehow convinced themselves that doping is not? I'm not making a lot of sense...does anyone understand what I'm wittering on about?

Personally, I'd rather use a motor in my bike than dope.

 

[doperhopper]

Re: Re:

I'm curious about these motors. I mean, no doubt they exist, and quite possibly there are ways of using them on televised and closely-scrutinised races without getting caught at the end (swapping bikes, clever use of bidons etc), but, I'm never sure about the psychology. I mean, doping is cheating, but it's clear that the riders themselves have managed to rationalise it so that they are not cheating in their minds - and a big part of that is the fact that they still train hard. Now, there is also the rationale that 'everyone's doing it', so perhaps this prisoner's dilemma could apply to motors as well, but I wonder if the riders themselves would see this as 'really' cheating, in a way that they have somehow convinced themselves that doping is not? I'm not making a lot of sense...does anyone understand what I'm wittering on about?

Personally, I'd rather use a motor in my bike than dope.

Spartacus agrees.

 

[proffate]

Re:

I'm curious about these motors. I mean, no doubt they exist, and quite possibly there are ways of using them on televised and closely-scrutinised races without getting caught at the end (swapping bikes, clever use of bidons etc), but, I'm never sure about the psychology. I mean, doping is cheating, but it's clear that the riders themselves have managed to rationalise it so that they are not cheating in their minds - and a big part of that is the fact that they still train hard. Now, there is also the rationale that 'everyone's doing it', so perhaps this prisoner's dilemma could apply to motors as well, but I wonder if the riders themselves would see this as 'really' cheating, in a way that they have somehow convinced themselves that doping is not? I'm not making a lot of sense...does anyone understand what I'm wittering on about?

so as soon as motor-dope you don't have to train any more? If spartacus shows up with a muffin top but still rides away, maybe. But I suspect the majority of motivated riders would train AND cheat, not one or the other.

 

[jyl]

Nairo Quintana Questions

Hello. I've been a reader here, this is my first post.

I'm curious what you guys think about Nairo Quintana. Do you think his performances are possible as a clean rider, or if you think he must be doping.

On the one hand, it seems to me, he is #14 on the list of fastest Alpe d'Huez ascents, up there among the known doping riders (Pantani, Armstrong, etc) and no other current rider is close. He seems to retain his strength better than others in the third week. I wonder how effective the testers in Columbia are.

On the other hand, he weighs only 125 lb and rides tiny (thus light) bike, grew up at 10K feet, reportedly has tested at 90 VO2 max, and was a winning climber from his early junior races, when he was surely too poor to afford doping. And as far as I know, he hasn't produced a long (over 30 min) climb over (estimated) 6.2 w/kg.

What do you think?

I did search for a NQ thread, but didn't find one. Sorry if I'm creating a superfluous thread here.

 

[Jacques de Molay]

Re: Nairo Quintana Questions

I did search for a NQ thread, but didn't find one.

There are a few.

Quintana??

Where is Quintana?

Universal's Gogulski Questioning Quintana's Basque Country Performance

 

[42x16ss]

Quintana is a huge natural talent, shown by his Junior and especially U23 results (unlike some others ) but to do what he's done - there's some red flags raised for sure.

 

[Ferminal]

I find it difficult to believe he was clean in Risoul noting the yada yada have you heard his team was the only Colombian anti-doping team,

 

[Le breton]

Re: Nairo Quintana Questions

......
On the other hand, he weighs only 125 lb and rides tiny (thus light) bike, ...

There is a 6.8 kg lower limit for bikes.
80 kg riders are able to use 6.8 kg bikes, representing 8.5 % of their body weight.

A 57 kg rider is not allowed to use a 4.8 kg bike (8,5% of 57 kg). He must carry a 2 kg penalty compared to the 80 kg cyclist.

On a steep climb that represents a disadvantage of about 0.9 times 2/57 ~ 3 %
equivalent to about 3 ml/mn.kg

 

[roundabout]

Re:

Quintana is a huge natural talent, shown by his Junior and especially U23 results (unlike some others ) but to do what he's done - there's some red flags raised for sure.

2009

40th Circuito Montanes

41st Giro Valle d'Aosta

2010

24th Giro delle Regioni

2011

21st Avenir

Apart from one Avenir that all the people remember there were literally zero performances of note in major U23 races in Europe

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

Quintana is a huge natural talent, shown by his Junior and especially U23 results (unlike some others ) but to do what he's done - there's some red flags raised for sure.

2009

40th Circuito Montanes

41st Giro Valle d'Aosta

2010

24th Giro delle Regioni

2011

21st Avenir

Apart from one Avenir that all the people remember there were literally zero performances of note in major U23 races in Europe

Aside from several good stage placings in those races, he took part in european pro races in those days, having results that shocked a hell of lot of people. KOM in Catalunya (yes, the WT race). 7th in the Subida Urkiola at age 19 against a full pro field. Nieve was 25 and finished a minute behind.

IMO the red flag on his is above all else the fact that he goes to the ends of the earth to 'train' before major races, either only doing 1 warmup race or sometimes none at all. That's textbook control avoiding.

 

[Ferminal]

In support of Freddy Montana too!?

Oh I never knew who ran Boyaca...

 

[roundabout]

Re: Re:

Quintana is a huge natural talent, shown by his Junior and especially U23 results (unlike some others ) but to do what he's done - there's some red flags raised for sure.

2009

40th Circuito Montanes

41st Giro Valle d'Aosta

2010

24th Giro delle Regioni

2011

21st Avenir

Apart from one Avenir that all the people remember there were literally zero performances of note in major U23 races in Europe

Aside from several good stage placings in those races, he took part in european pro races in those days, having results that shocked a hell of lot of people. KOM in Catalunya (yes, the WT race). 7th in the Subida Urkiola at age 19 against a full pro field. Nieve was 25 and finished a minute behind.

IMO the red flag on his is above all else the fact that he goes to the ends of the earth to 'train' before major races, either only doing 1 warmup race or sometimes none at all. That's textbook control avoiding.

And which several good stage placings would those be? I don't think he finished better than about 8th on any stage in those races that I listed.

Also, while a KOM is a KOM that's probably the least meaningful jersey that could be won (since they took away the metas volantes classification)