That would be hideous for an Italian race.The Tour de Suisse awards the #rideforgino-Bergpreis as a version of the Cima Coppi from this year onwards, so you could also use English and hashtags.
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It‘s also hideous for a Swiss race, but I wanted to bring this up in some thread. Sorry
I think it's good to retire his race number, but I don't think the rest of it will age well.
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Rules
Maglia Rosa: No bonus seconds in the race. When the Trofeo Senza Fine is awarded in Torino, no losers blemish the podium - the winner stands alone.Maglia Ciclamino: Points are scored on the finish-line only, all stages give the same amount: 25-20-16-14-12-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.
Maglia Verde: Climbs are divided in four categories: Cima Coppi, 1st, 2nd & 3rd. Cima Coppi (highest climb): 30-20-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1. Category 1 climbs: 20-12-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. Category 2 climbs: 10-6-4-3-2-1. Category 3 climbs: 5-3-2-1. The rider first over Montello will wear the jersey for stage 1.
Maglia Azzurra: The Intergiro classification takes the time of the riders at the mid-stage Intergiro sprint. There will also be a separate Intergiro points classification with the same distribution as the regular points competition. The winner of the daily Intergiro sprint will get on the podium after the stage winner. In all three ITTs, the Intergiro sprint is located at the second intermediate time check.
The 15 climbs in stage 9 give no points, but the rider who crosses the top first over most climbs of the day is awarded a special prize. Likewise, there's a special prize for the rider who wins the bonus sprint in Borgo Valsagana (stage 15). There will be no team classification.
May 16 | Individual Time Trial | Prologue | Varese > Varese | 7 Km |
May 17 | Medium Mountain | Stage 1 | Bergamo > Madonna del Ghisallo | 235 Km |
May 18 | Medium Mountain | Stage 2 | Lovere > Iseo | 167 Km |
May 19 | Plain | Stage 3 | Sirmione > Marina di Massa | 254 Km |
May 20 | Plain | Stage 4 | Firenze (Ponte a Ema) > Viterbo | 234 Km |
May 21 | Plain | Stage 5 | Fiano Romano > Montecassino | 214 Km |
May 22 | Individual Time Trial | Stage 6 | Benevento > Montevergine di Mercogliano | 61 Km |
May 23 | Medium Mountain | Stage 7 | Melfi > Viggiano | 210 Km |
May 24 | Medium Mountain | Stage 8 | Salerno > Ravello (Amalfi) | 160 Km |
May 25 | Rest Day | - | San Benedetto del Tronto | - |
May 26 | Medium Mountain | Stage 9 | San Benedetto del Tronto > Recanati | 226 Km |
May 27 | High Mountain | Stage 10 | Cagli > Cagli | 165 Km |
May 28 | Medium Mountain | Stage 11 | Pergola > Bagno di Romagna | 159 Km |
May 29 | Plain | Stage 12 | Cesena (TechnoGym Village) > Padova | 217 Km |
May 30 | High Mountain | Stage 13 | Conegliano > Sauris | 193 Km |
May 31 | High Mountain | Stage 14 | Tolmezzo > Cividale del Friuli | 191 Km |
June 1 | Rest Day | - | Trento | - |
June 2 | High Mountain | Stage 15 | Trento > Sella Valsugana | 187 Km |
June 3 | Plain | Stage 16 | Riva del Garda > Pavia | 221 Km |
June 4 | Individual Time Trial | Stage 17 | Tortona > Castellania | 67 Km |
June 5 | High Mountain | Stage 18 | Alessandria > Sestriere | 234 Km |
June 6 | High Mountain | Stage 19 | Pinerolo > Cuneo | 251 Km |
June 7 | Medium Mountain | Stage 20 | Torino > Torino | 90 Km |
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Love nearly all of it. Thought it brings me to question how hard is too hard, and I lean toward this being solidly too hard.
Right so since I've been summoned I feel compelled to say something about every stage.Rules
Maglia Rosa: No bonus seconds in the race. When the Trofeo Senza Fine is awarded in Torino, no losers blemish the podium - the winner stands alone.
Maglia Ciclamino: Points are scored on the finish-line only, all stages give the same amount: 25-20-16-14-12-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1.
Maglia Verde: Climbs are divided in four categories: Cima Coppi, 1st, 2nd & 3rd. Cima Coppi (highest climb): 30-20-15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1. Category 1 climbs: 20-12-8-6-5-4-3-2-1. Category 2 climbs: 10-6-4-3-2-1. Category 3 climbs: 5-3-2-1. The rider first over Montello will wear the jersey for stage 1.
Maglia Azzurra: The Intergiro classification takes the time of the riders at the mid-stage Intergiro sprint. There will also be a separate Intergiro points classification with the same distribution as the regular points competition. The winner of the daily Intergiro sprint will get on the podium after the stage winner. In all three ITTs, the Intergiro sprint is located at the second intermediate time check.
The 15 climbs in stage 9 give no points, but the rider who crosses the top first over most climbs of the day is awarded a special prize. Likewise, there's a special prize for the rider who wins the bonus sprint in Borgo Valsagana (stage 15). There will be no team classification.
Rest Day - San Benedetto del Tronto - Rest Day - Trento -
- Prologue. Simple, good prologue, I like having a small hill in it to hand out a KoM
- Stage 1. Like a MdS finish, it's selective but not too decisive at a historic location.
- Stage 2. I like the idea of a downhill finish, and Colli di San Fermo is the type of climb I think is super well suited for this type of idea. May simply get passive racing cause overall route is so hard and descent is too long/shallow.
- Stage 3. I like making sprinters and team work for their damn money. Though most sprinters would probably rather jump off a cliff than race this Giro
- Stage 4. Similar, I like a slighly more difficult sprint stage so that there's some chance for a breakaway or attack.
- Stage 5. Not sure here. Not a big lover of Monte Cassino, but 3 sprint stages in a row isn't it and the day before monster ITT I guess a simple uphill sprint suffices.
- Stage 6. *** monster. I like Montevergine especially here cause it forces riders to stick with the ITT bike. If route is more normal I'd cut down the false flat section to keep some balance
- Stage 7. I really like the finale, but I doubt you get action on the main climb anyway, so I'd cut down the difficulty before the finale
- Stage 8. While I like Monte Faito, I think this is just nailed on breakaway and I don't think this does anything for GC.
- Stage 9. Super sick. Think I prefer a flat final 5km here though?
- Stage 10. I didn't know Monte Nerone had a side that hard. But I think this stage suffers the most from overall route difficulty, so I'd wanna finish closer to the end of the Nerone descent.
- Stage 11. Pretty straightforward mid-Giro medium mountain stage wehre the break goes and the peloton doesn't do much. That's okay at this stage.
- Stage 12. I like this idea for a flat stage a lot. I'm really sure sprinters can't survive but even breakaway tactics should get very complicated. Reminds me of that massive break stage in the 2021 Tour, and I'm sure you had that in mind
- Stage 13. It's good but not crazy. Props for keeping up with tradition and throwing in Muro Ca' del Poggio. I'm not gonna miss that one
- Stage 14. Very very nice. Like that there's no MTF.
- Stage 15. Yeah sorry nah Lavaze instead of Passo Pampeago just doesn't sit well with me. Other than that it's awesome.
- Stage 16. Sprinters should be dead enough for rouleur break to win? Did I missed if you said anything about time limit rule changes
- Stage 17. Oof. TT length is good for this Giro, but still if I'm gonna hit my whining quota I prefer it a few stages earlier.
- Stage 18. Finestre, and not one Sestriere. Very nice.
- Stage 19. I've been having a very similar idea with Sampeyre, Montemale di Cuneo before Fauniera from Pradleves. Fauniera from Ponte Mormora doesn't sit well with me. My idea was basically to cut the fat before Sampeyre and then finish on Monte Rai after MdC.
- Stage 20. Gotta give props. Man hates parade stages as much as @Libertine Seguros hates Sepp Kuss. I love a Superga circuit, and I also think 4 is the perfect amount.
Overall it would be super sick, and it makes me think how much I'd throw in there and how much I'm willing to suspend disbelief for what still makes a raceable route versus "now we're just adding climbs because we can". I like the idea of the biggest stages not having the biggest MTFs, but I think I would take a few HC MTFs in the south of Italy instead of going super hard on the medium mountains there. Similarly, I'd been thinkin about somewhat limiting attrition but still keeping the # of GC stages up by simply having more 1-2 climb stages with a descent finish where the combination is good enough to enable action but the stages aren't so hard nobody dares to do anything anymore.
How much total distance and desnivel does your route have?
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Most of the designs were previous stand-alone works, then tweaked a bit and with some additions to add it up to a complete route. Of the individual stages, I think only Recanati and Pinerolo-Cuneo are too much (in addition to the length of the ITTs). I'm satisfied with the pacing of the overall route and I think I managed to show how to make some of the areas work. I definitely hope that if Fauniera returns, it will be the last mountain stage. I don't think it's unrealistic to hope that they'll include Sampeyre as well, so long as they don't do Montoso too.
Despite the success of 2018, I also fear that Fraiteve is more likely than double Sestriere afterwards.
I'm 260 km short of a proper GT (4000 km), and I'm still so soft that I include rest days. I don't know what the total vertical gain is (I don't trust LFR there at all).
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Yeah it works great as a wishlist. I agree if you skip Montoso and keep the distance in plausible range Sampeyre-Fauniera can happen like that.
But it's also where I think organisers won't really think like that and just connect climbs directly, even if that side of Fauniera isn't as good. Similarly, they wouldn't chug double Nerone in a stage 10 or so for no reason.
Think organisers are super prone to thinking "This good enough" rather than "this is the most amazing *** I can make here"
I think the later Zomegnan years received a lot of complaints from teams and riders, so there's a political economy to it. Like, how sponsor-friendly a field can you attract if riders fear that they can't combine it well with many other races? And it'd be bad to raise the bar to a level you can't repeat (or so I thought, until they just decided to make worse routes than previously).
I do suspect though that they lack the eye for good options in less well-known areas. So better to include high mountains that will be cancelled or cross the border (on paper). In the first two weeks I don't have a single climb above 1500 m, but you can still design decisive stages in all of Italy with that in mind.
I do suspect though that they lack the eye for good options in less well-known areas. So better to include high mountains that will be cancelled or cross the border (on paper). In the first two weeks I don't have a single climb above 1500 m, but you can still design decisive stages in all of Italy with that in mind.
When were the later Zomegnan years?
I think I agree and disagree. I don't really think riders don't show up if the route is hard when announced. But it is more likely riders will have a *** fit to get some climb canceled if it's raining if the race has been hard.
That said, I think most of their political *** hasn't even been in the most difficult Giro's. It's just been every time it got cold, wet and high, and the one time it only got wet.
The Giro still does kinda it's best to have 1 or 2 proper tapponi every year, but they have had absolutely disgusting luck with some of their best designs as well. And there's been some shittier designs obviously.
Now the question is what happens not when you still have 2 monster stages in the Giro, but when you make the first 2 weeks harder/more selective, and I don't think that much happens, because the Vuelta has gotten these guys used to havin their 17 MTFs routes already.
Finally there should always been an element of self correction with what riders come, cause when none of the mutants show up the incentive for all the rest to come increases dramatically
But it's the mutants who sell. I don't think RCS will be happy with a lighter version of the 2022 field (minus Nibali). Zomegnan was fired after 2011, but perhaps as much over transfers and whacky/gimmick ideas (as Crostis was perceived to be) than "hardness" alone. I'd much prefer if they avoided the highest mountains, borders and "gimmicks", minimised transfers and made quiet, solid routes for a few years. Less controversy, just racing.
Mutants is what you have a bag of money for. Or not.
The moment you sell yourself out to the whims of 1 rider is the moment you downgrade your own race. Fans eating up is just speeding up the decline of the sport.
I hope Tiberi and Pellizzari will be future contenders for the victory, it must be harder for the race if you neither have the international superstars nor any local stars (other than Ganna and Milan now).
I agree in principle but I don't think that selling yourself to the whims of one (or two) riders, and fans enjoying it, make cycling decline. The Giro and Tour have done it very deliberately for the past 30 years.
With a Giro route like this one, Pogačar would win some 10 stages with the kind of field he had this year.
The sprinters on the other hand, would avoid this race like the plague.
The sprinters on the other hand, would avoid this race like the plague.
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Shame on me for missing so much here. Design! And - click - it's the Netserk design!
From the OP, I know one thing: Tadej Pogacar will win the bike race, mark my words...
I'm going to read it all!
From the OP, I know one thing: Tadej Pogacar will win the bike race, mark my words...
I'm going to read it all!
Are there any PCM designs for these routes? Would love to play them in PCM. That's a brutal design by the way, Netserk.
The best I can do is provide the ridewithgps tracks, you can easily download the .gpx files of the stages there: https://ridewithgps.com/collections/2215873
Let me guess, you think it's an 8/10?
For what it's worth, I actually do think the route might be too hard. I feel like riders would start focusing on conserving energy so much that most of the best and most original designs would simply not get raced properly. But then to be fair, none of us really know how this design would be raced and it's mostly guess work.
But I mean the individual designs...chefs kiss.
But I mean the individual designs...chefs kiss.
My hope is that as the route has even less emphasis on hard final climbs than 2015 (my most difficult MTF is Sestriere or Madonna del Ghisallo and the hardest last climb for a descent finish is Colli di San Fermo), climbers will have to race at least some of the penultimate climbs.
Yeah and I really like that. My problem is rather that I question if gc guys will race a medium mountain stage that might see gc action in a more conventional GT, because they still rather conserve energy for the really big stages. This seems like the kind of route where it's all about dealing big blows without having a bad day and that might lead to passive racing on really well designed days. But as I said, that's just a concern I would have in reality. I think such a radically different route would have a lot of consequences none of us are anticipating. In fact it would probably take years for the teams to figure out the right approach for such a race.
I think it's only my Cuneo-Pinerolo (in reverse) homage that qualifies as a really big stage, maybe? Like, terminology aside, I'm not sure if any of the other stages would be the hardest stage most other years. I think the only straightforward places to deal big damage are on Pura (profile score 714, with 15 km to go) and Manghen (profile score 1042, with 33 km to go).
In a sense, I also don't think it's bad if the biggest players are a bit passive in the tricky stages - that should allow for some opportunistic moves. And the overall hardness should mean that the breakaways win most stages.
I agree with you that while we may have a model of what these kind of stages do on the margin, we cannot just extrapolate and be confident with the result.
In a sense, I also don't think it's bad if the biggest players are a bit passive in the tricky stages - that should allow for some opportunistic moves. And the overall hardness should mean that the breakaways win most stages.
I agree with you that while we may have a model of what these kind of stages do on the margin, we cannot just extrapolate and be confident with the result.
Thanks a lot but it says I don't have permission to view it.The best I can do is provide the ridewithgps tracks, you can easily download the .gpx files of the stages there: https://ridewithgps.com/collections/2215873
Let me guess, you think it's an 8/10?
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