Rafa Nadal

[Parrot23]

Beta Blockers and they are used a lot

Yes, I've heard that. For the nerves, tension, etc.

Gotta go now.... Thanks.

 

[Altitude]

Of course, Nadal and Djokovic seem doped to the gills. Hard to deny that. Who'd be surprised? Their mothers? You guys?

BUT all the doping in the world is not going to turn you or them into good tennis players (or result in even an iota of the skills shown yesterday).

Not so with cycling at all (though you have to start with a genetically gifted, high VO2 MAX to begin with). There are practically no genetic gifts in tennis. It's 95% skill. Not so in cycling at all.

Your serve, Cavendish, ROFLMAO

Let's face it, the avg. tennis player is a hell of better athlete than the avg. cyclist, ha, ha! (NB: I'm still a cycling fan.) In purely athletic terms, Contador or Evans or Gilbert etc. are rank amateurs, just mice, compared to the top tennis players. Ha, ha, but it's true!

What are you talking about? Of course there are genetic gifts in tennis. You're born with the ability, just like every other sport in the world. I could dedicate my entire life to becoming a good tennis player and still never be able to win a game off a top pro.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I found Nadal using the term 'unbelievable' to describe Djokovic's performance very ironic.

Takes one to know one I guess.

 

[richtea]

What are you talking about? Of course there are genetic gifts in tennis. You're born with the ability, just like every other sport in the world. I could dedicate my entire life to becoming a good tennis player and still never be able to win a game off a top pro.

While it is possible you are correct, it is worth acknowledging that there is also a significant body of opinion suggesting the opposite - i.e. the skills required to play tennis or any other sport that involves a large degree of hand-eye co-ordination are primarily related to the number of hours spent practicing. For example, someones ability to return a serve is primarily related to how well they can read the servers body movements and predict the angle, speed, and spin of the service.

And you can see this in action. I happened to see Murray v Navarro at Queen's last year. Navarro has a very unorthodox serve that he uses to launch himself into his serve & volley game, and Murray could not deal with it for the whole of the first set (and I believe this was their first and only meeting). However, by the end of the match he was sending almost every serve back for a clean winner. We can debate whether this skill is innate, but my suspicion would be that this primarily to time spent on the practice courts.

 

[mb2612]

While it is possible you are correct, it is worth acknowledging that there is also a significant body of opinion suggesting the opposite - i.e. the skills required to play tennis or any other sport that involves a large degree of hand-eye co-ordination are primarily related to the number of hours spent practicing. For example, someones ability to return a serve is primarily related to how well they can read the servers body movements and predict the angle, speed, and spin of the service.

And you can see this in action. I happened to see Murray v Navarro at Queen's last year. Navarro has a very unorthodox serve that he uses to launch himself into his serve & volley game, and Murray could not deal with it for the whole of the first set (and I believe this was their first and only meeting). However, by the end of the match he was sending almost every serve back for a clean winner. We can debate whether this skill is innate, but my suspicion would be that this primarily to time spent on the practice courts.

Yep, but the school of opinion is pretty much just wrong.


Read here: http://www.sportsscientists.com/2011/08/talent-training-and-performance-secrets.html and the follow up article

 

[richtea]

Very interesting article (and the complementary one on the role of genetics), and the role of selection bias (i.e. that those doing the practice are self-selecting owing to genetic ability) is an issue I had not considered before. That said, the evidence in support of the genetic role is limited to a single measure (VO2 max response to training) - it would be interesting to see the relationship between practice broken down for a sport that require a complex mixture of different skills.

 

[mb2612]

Very interesting article (and the complementary one on the role of genetics), and the role of selection bias (i.e. that those doing the practice are self-selecting owing to genetic ability) is an issue I had not considered before. That said, the evidence in support of the genetic role is limited to a single measure (VO2 max response to training) - it would be interesting to see the relationship between practice broken down for a sport that require a complex mixture of different skills.

The one example I saw quoted somewhere was Agassi, who's dad took him and his 2? siblings out to play tennis pretty much from the cradle. Yet despite the others getting the same training as him, Andre was the only one who made it, with the others not even going pro.

The other comparison is just to point out that all of the top 100 have sacrificed their whole life to tennis yet Djokovic would never lose to whoever is ranked 100 in the world, and you can't just put that down to more practice

 

[The Hitch]

The tennis Djokovic and Nadal show have more to do with returning impossible balls from impossible locations and that for hours after hours. Djokovic seems to never tire out anymore which was his main weakness in previous years.

Yep. 2 years ago Djokovic was 1 way from the career retirement grand slam.

Now hes 1 away from the career grand slam.

 

[Gingerale]

i guess i miss the days when someone like Safin (US Open 2000) took the title by surprise and i don't see that as likely to happen in the present environment. it's been a race between 2 machines since 2005: Federer was simply replaced by Djokovic.

Federer's case is more subtle than Nadal's. i didn't suspect Federer at all until 2008 and he was diagnosed with mono/glandular fever. even then, it took the coincidence of others having mono to make me wonder about blood doping in tennis. and we'll not know unless...who knows what happens.

 

[richtea]

The one example I saw quoted somewhere was Agassi, who's dad took him and his 2? siblings out to play tennis pretty much from the cradle. Yet despite the others getting the same training as him, Andre was the only one who made it, with the others not even going pro.

The other comparison is just to point out that all of the top 100 have sacrificed their whole life to tennis yet Djokovic would never lose to whoever is ranked 100 in the world, and you can't just put that down to more practice

You make a good argument, but there are other factors separating the top 100. A big difference between players is mental - ability to handle pressure, confidence, willingness to fight. How often do we see lower players crumble when they are serving for a set (Troicki v Murray at the French)? Fitness is another issue, while that article seems to show genetic factors are important in terms of fitness potential, there are undeniably many players well below their top condition. And practice is a factor - Gulbis is often held up as an example of a player who has failed to reach his potential as a result of being too lazy in training.

 

[richtea]

Yep. 2 years ago Djokovic was 1 way from the career retirement grand slam.

Now hes 1 away from the career grand slam.

Its difficult to avoid the obvious conclusion isn't it?

 

[mb2612]

You make a good argument, but there are other factors separating the top 100. A big difference between players is mental - ability to handle pressure, confidence, willingness to fight. How often do we see lower players crumble when they are serving for a set (Troicki v Murray at the French)? Fitness is another issue, while that article seems to show genetic factors are important in terms of fitness potential, there are undeniably many players well below their top condition. And practice is a factor - Gulbis is often held up as an example of a player who has failed to reach his potential as a result of being too lazy in training.

Sure there are isolated cases, but you can't be claiming that if everyone in the top 100 just pulled their socks up we would have 100 indistinguishable players

 

[Parrot23]

A big difference between players is mental - ability to handle pressure, confidence, willingness to fight....

while that article seems to show genetic factors are important in terms of fitness potential, there are undeniably many players well below their top condition.

Yes, on both points.

For all the people applying loose analogies from doping in cycling, I agree there must be a lot of doping in tennis. But what happened to Djokovic between the 3rd and 4th sets at the U.S. Open?

Doping? Took steroids? Had a blood tranfusion on court?

Nadal had seized the momentum. Djokovic was clearly exhausted. He was also injured (physio worked on his back, etc, and he had a shoulder injury coming into the tournament). Yet he won the match in the next set. Stunning.

How? It wasn't natural ability/talent (at that point in the match, it's effectively irrelevant or indistinguishable between the two players). Djokovic more talented than Nadal? No way. Nadal more talented than Djokovic? No way. No one knows, and ever will or can know.

What happened? Somehow, he won with this "head" (managed in a state of exhaustion/injury to shorten the points and tighten up everything while exhausted). And this a function both of "practice"/tons of matches in the years before, and many intangible factors not in the slightest amenable to improvement by doping or explicable in terms of "talent". He's no newbie; he's been knocking at the door since his Australian Open win in '08.

Doping analogies from cycling don't apply well to overwhelmingly skill-based sports. Latter are too intangible. There's much more of a 1:1 relationship between doping/cheating (in addition to genetic gifts of VO2 max, etc.) in cycling and performance outcomes.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Doping analogies from cycling don't apply well to overwhelmingly skill-based sports. Latter are too intangible. There's much more of a 1:1 relationship between doping/cheating (in addition to genetic gifts of VO2 max, etc.) in cycling and performance outcomes.

Doping in a skill sport such as shooting can have the same benefits to the result just like EPO can for cycling. There are drugs that make your heart beat slower which can make shooters shoot better because they are more calmer and breathing less heavily.

A blood transfusion can make a tennis player less fatigued compared to a player who is not fatigued which can result in the doped player to be able to play their skills better because of the fact they are less fatigued they can hit the ball harder and fatigue at a slower rate.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Yes, on both points.

For all the people applying loose analogies from doping in cycling, I agree there must be a lot of doping in tennis. But what happened to Djokovic between the 3rd and 4th sets at the U.S. Open?

Doping? Took steroids? Had a blood tranfusion on court?

Nadal had seized the momentum. Djokovic was clearly exhausted. He was also injured (physio worked on his back, etc, and he had a shoulder injury coming into the tournament). Yet he won the match in the next set. Stunning.

How? It wasn't natural ability/talent (at that point in the match, it's effectively irrelevant or indistinguishable between the two players). Djokovic more talented than Nadal? No way. Nadal more talented than Djokovic? No way. No one knows, and ever will or can know.

What happened? Somehow, he won with this "head" (managed in a state of exhaustion/injury to shorten the points and tighten up everything while exhausted). And this a function both of "practice"/tons of matches in the years before, and many intangible factors not in the slightest amenable to improvement by doping or explicable in terms of "talent". He's no newbie; he's been knocking at the door since his Australian Open win in '08.

Doping analogies from cycling don't apply well to overwhelmingly skill-based sports. Latter are too intangible. There's much more of a 1:1 relationship between doping/cheating (in addition to genetic gifts of VO2 max, etc.) in cycling and performance outcomes.

WHICH MATCH WERE YOU WATCHING ?? Djokovich exhausted !!?? not in the match I was watching - he barely broke sweat - nor Nadal. Djokovich is well known for pulling the injury time out game - thats all that was.

Like Murray, Djokovich always looked NATURALLY knackered after 3 hard sets...now he looks like Nadal..on something !

 

[Parrot23]

Doping in a skill sport such as shooting can have the same benefits to the result just like EPO can for cycling. There are drugs that make your heart beat slower which can make shooters shoot better because they are more calmer and breathing less heavily.

You're referring to beta blockers, which will "kill" dead the performance of a tennis player or biathlete (gross reduction in cardiac output). Would be like performing with two parking brakes on simultaneously.

It was also great to see the blood transfusion both players had between the third and fourth sets (right on the court) at the U.S. Open. Perked Djokovic esp. right up. He's a better responder.

Maybe Barack O. is on PEDs too? Bet his poll numbers would rise with a transfusion. George Bush looks mighty suspicious on his MTB too (gotta find that WMD in tennis). Tiger Woods? All that steroid-induced muscle? That's why he was a great golfer ROFLMAO.

With the cycling doping hammer, everything looks like a nail. Relative concepts are evidently too difficult for some cycling fans to handle. Hey folks, while you're at it, look up comparative advantage in economics: how a country with more expensive wages and costs can still compete with and benefit from trade with absurdly low wage countries (hint, David Ricardo). And that's also the glory of some sports like tennis, where it ain't just about brute force/endurance like cycling with no brains (relatively speaking, of course)!

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes, on both points.

For all the people applying loose analogies from doping in cycling, I agree there must be a lot of doping in tennis. But what happened to Djokovic between the 3rd and 4th sets at the U.S. Open?

Doping? Took steroids? Had a blood tranfusion on court?

Nadal had seized the momentum. Djokovic was clearly exhausted. He was also injured (physio worked on his back, etc, and he had a shoulder injury coming into the tournament). Yet he won the match in the next set. Stunning.

How? It wasn't natural ability/talent (at that point in the match, it's effectively irrelevant or indistinguishable between the two players). Djokovic more talented than Nadal? No way. Nadal more talented than Djokovic? No way. No one knows, and ever will or can know.

What happened? Somehow, he won with this "head" (managed in a state of exhaustion/injury to shorten the points and tighten up everything while exhausted). And this a function both of "practice"/tons of matches in the years before, and many intangible factors not in the slightest amenable to improvement by doping or explicable in terms of "talent". He's no newbie; he's been knocking at the door since his Australian Open win in '08.

Doping analogies from cycling don't apply well to overwhelmingly skill-based sports. Latter are too intangible. There's much more of a 1:1 relationship between doping/cheating (in addition to genetic gifts of VO2 max, etc.) in cycling and performance outcomes.

Sure, cyclists are sitting on their ass all day twiddling their little legs - there is no skill there as its just V02 max based, as PEDs would have everyone maxed out the same, they all finish together and no-one wins.

But as tennis is so skill based the diminishing effects of fatigue would impact more on that skill, so therefore PEDs would have a massive advantage in skill based sports as opposed to a non skilled based sport like cycling. (See what I did there!)

 

[Parrot23]

No, I'm looking for a Cobo vs. Froome grudge singles final at the "Tour de U.S. Open" next year (skill-based event ) based on their excellent pedaling performance at the Vuelta. Nadal/Djoko don't stand a chance.

Match to be preceded by their having a UCI sponsored pro tricycling race (500 laps round the court--but 1500 laps if you want more skill-testing). Will determine pro pedaling "skills" (dope PEDaling "team performance" included), and also how many "dopes" are in the audience.

 

[El Pistolero]

Sure, cyclists are sitting on their ass all day twiddling their little legs - there is no skill there as its just V02 max based, as PEDs would have everyone maxed out the same, they all finish together and no-one wins.

But as tennis is so skill based the diminishing effects of fatigue would impact more on that skill, so therefore PEDs would have a massive advantage in skill based sports as opposed to a non skilled based sport like cycling. (See what I did there!)

Cycling is very much skill based by the way. Some people crash a lot in a season, some hardly. Only so much of it can be contributed to bad luck. And the other skills are taking corners and descending. Cancellara is a beast at that. If doing a volley is called a skill than descending surely is one.

 

[Gingerale]

WHICH MATCH WERE YOU WATCHING ?? Djokovich exhausted !!?? not in the match I was watching - he barely broke sweat - nor Nadal. Djokovich is well known for pulling the injury time out game - thats all that was.

Like Murray, Djokovich always looked NATURALLY knackered after 3 hard sets...now he looks like Nadal..on something !

about tired, djokovic used to look "knackered" most of the time. 2011 he doesn't appear anywhere near as tired except in the Cincinnati Final when he retired with an injury. but i think sweating profusely is something nadal and roddick do more than anyone. roddick has rivers of sweat streaming off his baseball cap in any match. but looking tired and sweating profusely don't generally go together for nadal and roddick. if djokovic or federer start sweating profusely, they are in trouble - likely ill.

i have yet to figure out murray. he keeps me guessing.

nadal towels off obsessive-compulsively while getting ready to receive. i'm not sure he could play tennis without a towel, seriously. he sweats so much. you can see it in the youtube link. towel>left arm>face/neck/>right arm>left leg>right leg. repeat after each point. nadal also repeats an identical cross step routine, on his long journey getting into position to receive, also making sure his feet don't touch a white line. and has the famous bottle arranging and... garment adjusting, ofc. not laughing at him, just observing. it is said he cannot help himself and nothing can be done.

these 2 take a long time to finish a set. both are perpetually in excess of the time limit. occasionally the ump hands a time violation. actually i think nadal finally received a coaching violation in this match. atp does not allow coaching and both uncle toni, nadals coach, and marian vjada, djokovic's, are known for breaking the rule. perhaps a bandanna could be fitted to receive updates from uncle toni?

this is from the start of the second set and it takes over 28 minutes to finish 3 games. the most interesting thing about the contest in game 3 is how hard fought it was at deuce with rafa serving. djokovic is determined to break rafa's serve and i think it's a great display of how skilled a returner djokovic is. i have watched djokovic absolutely crush his opponents great 1st serve, a serve that would usually be not returnable or an ace. nadal wasn't serving as good as 2010 us open final but he wasn't serving bad. djokovic is a great serve destroyer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UAtKUhAHvY&feature=related

when i get home from work tonight i'm going to watch the 4th set again and see if rafa gave up uncharacteristically, or what. it was a bit strange. i recall settling in for the usual 2 more hours of tennis, each player needing a MTO. but it was over relatively too quick.

 

[veganrob]

Cycling is very much skill based by the way. Some people crash a lot in a season, some hardly. Only so much of it can be contributed to bad luck. And the other skills are taking corners and descending. Cancellara is a beast at that. If doing a volley is called a skill than descending surely is one.

You're damn right. I know that later in a long mtn bike race my skills are not quite as sharp because of fatigue.

 

[Andynonomous]

Current, low ranked, pro tennis player (Martin Klizan) says that he thinks Djokovic is clean, and Nadal is dirty.

I am betting that the ITF will give him a talking to.

Thou shalt not break Omerta, Martin !


http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2011/09/22/news-and-notes-sept-22-2011/
(half way down the page).

 

[Cycle Chic]

about tired, djokovic used to look "knackered" most of the time. 2011 he doesn't appear anywhere near as tired except in the Cincinnati Final when he retired with an injury. but i think sweating profusely is something nadal and roddick do more than anyone. roddick has rivers of sweat streaming off his baseball cap in any match. but looking tired and sweating profusely don't generally go together for nadal and roddick. if djokovic or federer start sweating profusely, they are in trouble - likely ill.

i have yet to figure out murray. he keeps me guessing.

nadal towels off obsessive-compulsively while getting ready to receive. i'm not sure he could play tennis without a towel, seriously. he sweats so much. you can see it in the youtube link. towel>left arm>face/neck/>right arm>left leg>right leg. repeat after each point. nadal also repeats an identical cross step routine, on his long journey getting into position to receive, also making sure his feet don't touch a white line. and has the famous bottle arranging and... garment adjusting, ofc. not laughing at him, just observing. it is said he cannot help himself and nothing can be done.

these 2 take a long time to finish a set. both are perpetually in excess of the time limit. occasionally the ump hands a time violation. actually i think nadal finally received a coaching violation in this match. atp does not allow coaching and both uncle toni, nadals coach, and marian vjada, djokovic's, are known for breaking the rule. perhaps a bandanna could be fitted to receive updates from uncle toni?

this is from the start of the second set and it takes over 28 minutes to finish 3 games. the most interesting thing about the contest in game 3 is how hard fought it was at deuce with rafa serving. djokovic is determined to break rafa's serve and i think it's a great display of how skilled a returner djokovic is. i have watched djokovic absolutely crush his opponents great 1st serve, a serve that would usually be not returnable or an ace. nadal wasn't serving as good as 2010 us open final but he wasn't serving bad. djokovic is a great serve destroyer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UAtKUhAHvY&feature=related

when i get home from work tonight i'm going to watch the 4th set again and see if rafa gave up uncharacteristically, or what. it was a bit strange. i recall settling in for the usual 2 more hours of tennis, each player needing a MTO. but it was over relatively too quick.

Thats all very interesting - but whats your point ??

 

[Gingerale]

Thats all very interesting - but whats your point ??

i think i started out meaning to respond to your post. maybe to show how nadal perspires a lot but doesn't necessarily look tired and djokovic doesn't sweat at all like the buckets nadal does and tie it into doping... something like that. oops. i got watching the match again and lost the point.

as it is, it's definitely a random post. there isn't a good excuse.

 

[Gingerale]

Current, low ranked, pro tennis player (Martin Klizan) says that he thinks Djokovic is clean, and Nadal is dirty.

I am betting that the ITF will give him a talking to.

Thou shalt not break Omerta, Martin !


http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2011/09/22/news-and-notes-sept-22-2011/
(half way down the page).

enjoyed the link.

i'll feel sorry for him if nadal has heard about it and klizan gets through a qualifying and faces nadal in a main draw.