Rafa Nadal

[sars1981]

I´m not a Spaniard. In the US English which I speak, "rugby" means any one of rugby league or union or sevens - since none are all that common in the US, and all are played at a club level, and most folks have no idea about any of them, making finer distinctions is only confusing. In US English the word "football" means US football - with helmets and pads - while in UK English it means "soccer" - while elsewhere it means other things. It's hard to use "rugby" or "football" in a way which seems correct to all speakers of English. In any case, it doesn't matter which of them you are talking about - at the professional level they are all clearly full of doping and steroids and the like - these are games in which extra strength, size, and endurance all count for a lot.

My point is that I would not "acknowledge" that Spain has a doping culture that is more developed than that of the US, England, France, Australia, China or any number of other big countries with strong sports programs, since I don't see any evidence (not of an anecdotal kind) for such a sweeping claim. Moreover, such a claim is suspect, particularly when it comes from the so-called Anglo-Saxon world, because there is a very clear condescension in a part of that world towards all things Mediterrannean. US professional sports are rife with drugs/doping/etc - NBA (just look at the players), NFL, baseball are clearly loaded - US track and field - Tim Montgomery, Marion Jones, etc.. - US cycling - Lance, Tyler, Floyd, etc. - I have direct experience with US football - there the doping regimens start in high school - the big pro sports in France/England/Spain/etc are football (with a round ball) followed by some collection of minor sports e.g. basketball, football/rugby/rugby league (oval ball), tennis, golf, or cycling. I don't known if I'd agree with "some countries dope more than others" or not - it seems to me there is some of evidence that the US is the world's leader in doping - in the development of doping technology and in the difusion of doping technology to athletes at all levels. Clearly something similar can be said for most wealthy western European nations, and probably also China and eastern Europe. What seems likely true is that in any professional sport in which doping can push one over the edge from mere professional to big time money maker there is a huge tendency to dope.

Spain has Rafa Nadal and Alberto Contador, Australia has Ian Thorpe and Cadel Evans. I don't see much difference.

Maybe the reason there are is so much doping in Spanish cycling is that so many cyclists, of all nationalities, come to Spain to train, because of its mild climate and its abundant mountainous terrain, coupled with the large number of Spaniards who cycle. Don't get me wrong - there is clearly corruption, or at least willful blindness, among the sporting authorities, and the president twittering his support of Contador is not what is needed - but one should also not conclude that a large number of busts means lots of doping - maybe it just means more active policing. Doping is a hard thing to police - the sporting authorities are often complicit, or willfully blind - and the legal regime is often not well adapted to controlling novel substances - finally, controlling doping may not be a priority (and perhaps ought not to be) for police and judges who have to worry about other things which very clearly do more damage to society.

Agreed for the most part. I admit I have no inside knowledge on the extent of doping in America. In that sense my opinion is largely based on ignorance (which I admitted in the first place vis a vis Nadal).

One thing you can't doubt, though, is that America and Australia have more persecutory legal view of doping. I think that point has already been made in this thread. I mean can you really imagine the Federal Investigation that lance is under eventuating if Lance was Spanish or Russian, by the Spanish or Russian government?

Maybe the pertinent question is:

does a stronger anti-doping stance (in say America or Australia) amount to less doped Athletes?

I can see that it might not. Maybe it's so easy to dope that administration makes no difference. I really have no evidence, but I still call it common sense to think that doping is much more prevalent in Spain and Russia than Australia.

 

[Andynonomous]

I think that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that those jurisdictions that try to catch dopers (even if the efforts are somewhat weak) will have fewer dopers than those who do everything they can to protect the dopers.

As well most of the doping in the USA happens in club level sports (NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL) and has no effect on international prestige. Spain's "golden age" sports are primarily international sports (World cup, Tennis grand slams, olympic sports, Tour de France,...).

Everyone can have an opinion, but mine is that Spain's "golden age" is a fraud on the level of Lance Armstrong being the best cyclist ever.

 

[hrotha]

As well most of the doping in the USA happens in club level sports (NHL, NBA, MLB, NFL) and has no effect on international prestige

Not that I disagree with your broad point, but remember the US basketball team that competes at the Olympics and the Worlds has been made up mainly by NBA players since 1992. Their greatest advantage, in the last decade, has been their superior physiques. On the other hand, other countries have several NBA players in their national teams too (Spain being a notable example, with 4 or 5 players at any given time).

 

[Andynonomous]

Not that I disagree with your broad point, but remember the US basketball team that competes at the Olympics and the Worlds has been made up mainly by NBA players since 1992. Their greatest advantage, in the last decade, has been their superior physiques. On the other hand, other countries have several NBA players in their national teams too (Spain being a notable example, with 4 or 5 players at any given time).

No question (I am Canadian, and we won gold in the last winter Olympics in ice hockey. Most of those players were likely doped as well).

The club championships (Stanley cup, NBA championship, "World" series, Super Bowl) are considered more important in those sports than any international championship (unlike World football/soccer which has the World cup as the elite tournament). Any prestige stolen in those sports are at the city level, rather than the national level.

Spain has received a tremendous amount of international prestige while the Spanish authorities have protected it's dopers (ie covering up the Fuentes list). I believe that by and large most of that prestige is unearned. Comparing Spain to the US, Russia, and China is NOT a defence since those countries are amongst the worst in the world for doping.

 

[Paco_P]

A
One thing you can't doubt, though, is that America and Australia have more persecutory legal view of doping. I think that point has already been made in this thread. I mean can you really imagine the Federal Investigation that lance is under eventuating if Lance was Spanish or Russian, by the Spanish or Russian government?
.

I don't find this obvious at all. Operacion Puerta, after all, was a legal action undertaken by Spain's guardia civil (functionally something like the FBI is in the US) in which nearly 200 people were implicated. I don't know of anything of that size in the US, whereas in Spain there have been a number of similar investigations. The famous cases in the US, like BALCO, or Marion Jones, are all quite focused on a single individual. What's true is that later they all seem to die in the courts, something which reeks of corruption in the most explicit sense. It's also probably the case that the Spanish sporting federations are more complicit in protecting the doping than are similar organization in the US, although it should be kept in mind that in Spain such federations generally have some legal character, even being a part of the government, whereas in the US they are generally bodies independent of any direct governmental influence - and this has the consequence that in Spain such bodies are more susceptible to nationalistic and political pressures than are their anologues in the US.

 

[Paco_P]

I think that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that those jurisdictions that try to catch dopers (even if the efforts are somewhat weak) will have fewer dopers than those who do everything they can to protect the dopers.

I think it is not so clear cut that in Spain there is no effort made in this direction. What was Operacion Puerta but a police action? The law and the courts are inadequate to the effort, but that's true in lots of contexts in Spain.

Also I don't see that there are more dopers per capita in Spain than there are in the US or England, for that matter. My impression is just that they are distributed differently - concentrated in football and cycling - in the US these terribly minor sports - and the doping is concentrated elsewhere - nonetheless the most famous cycling dopers are from the US - where they have never even tested positive, much less faced sanctions.

 

[Andynonomous]

What is Fuentes up to today ?

I think it is not so clear cut that in Spain there is no effort made in this direction. What was Operacion Puerta but a police action? The law and the courts are inadequate to the effort, but that's true in lots of contexts in Spain.

Also I don't see that there are more dopers per capita in Spain than there are in the US or England, for that matter. My impression is just that they are distributed differently - concentrated in football and cycling - in the US these terribly minor sports - and the doping is concentrated elsewhere - nonetheless the most famous cycling dopers are from the US - where they have never even tested positive, much less faced sanctions.

The Guardia Civil did their job. The Spanish judiciary and politicians however, DID THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THEIR JOB.

The Spanish judiciary PROTECTED PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING WRONG. They did this by 1) Covering up who was Fuentes clients, 2) Using a lame excuse (that Spain had no law against doping) to kill Puerto. Of course, now that Spain HAS enacted new laws, FUENTES IS STILL HELPING ATHLETES DOPE DESPITE GETTING CAUGHT AGAIN. The problem is not a lack of laws, but a lack of will.

Spanish politicians have LIED (Lissavetzky claiming no tennis players, athletics, footballers were clients of Fuentes), and pressured (Socialist president) RFEC to "exonerate" Contador.

It is clear to everybody but you that Doping is condoned in Spain, as long as "sporting glory" follows. And to keep using the tired old excuse of "they all do it", is frankly starting to sound lame.

The "golden age" is an absolute sham !

 

[Benotti69]

The Guardia Civil did their job. The Spanish judiciary and politicians however, DID THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THEIR JOB.

The Spanish judiciary PROTECTED PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING WRONG. They did this by 1) Covering up who was Fuentes clients, 2) Using a lame excuse (that Spain had no law against doping) to kill Puerto. Of course, now that Spain HAS enacted new laws, FUENTES IS STILL HELPING ATHLETES DOPE DESPITE GETTING CAUGHT AGAIN. The problem is not a lack of laws, but a lack of will.

Spanish politicians have LIED (Lissavetzky claiming no tennis players, athletics, footballers were clients of Fuentes), and pressured (Socialist president) RFEC to "exonerate" Contador.

It is clear to everybody but you that Doping is condoned in Spain, as long as "sporting glory" follows. And to keep using the tired old excuse of "they all do it", is frankly starting to sound lame.

The "golden age" is an absolute sham !

Sadly that is the truth.

 

[Paco_P]

The Guardia Civil did their job. The Spanish judiciary and politicians however, DID THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THEIR JOB.

The Spanish judiciary PROTECTED PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING WRONG. They did this by 1) Covering up who was Fuentes clients, 2) Using a lame excuse (that Spain had no law against doping) to kill Puerto. Of course, now that Spain HAS enacted new laws, FUENTES IS STILL HELPING ATHLETES DOPE DESPITE GETTING CAUGHT AGAIN. The problem is not a lack of laws, but a lack of will.

Spanish politicians have LIED (Lissavetzky claiming no tennis players, athletics, footballers were clients of Fuentes), and pressured (Socialist president) RFEC to "exonerate" Contador.

It is clear to everybody but you that Doping is condoned in Spain, as long as "sporting glory" follows. And to keep using the tired old excuse of "they all do it", is frankly starting to sound lame.

The "golden age" is an absolute sham !

You are misinterpreting what I am saying and missing a larger point. I am not claiming that there is not a problem with doping in Spain. I am denying that there is much evidence that the problem is worse than it is in say, the US or England. I think it is obtuse to ignore that the disproportionate medal counts claimed by the US in the last 15 or so Olympics are the direct consequence of massive doping - in many cases this is proved - Jones, Montgomery, Pettigrew, Greene, Flo-Jo, Lewis, Gatlin, Harrisons, Mitchell, and I'm just naming sprinter - there are 100s. Back in the 80's everybody knew what was being done to get more medals than the Soviets. If you look at pro sports, the situation is even worse. There is almost no legal action taken against dopers in the US - BALCO and like are exceptional - and Barry Bonds got nailed on legal crime, not a drug crime.

In Spain there is a sector in the police world that is trying to do something about these cases. As hard as it may be to believe, Spanish law was inadequate in many respects before Puerta. It's only been a democracy for a few decades - one of the reactions to the dictatorship was to greatly reduce criminal penalties in many contexts - a natural reaction to the excesses of the dictatorship. Politicians like Lissasevsky are clowns. It is a problem that so much of the administration of sports is in the hands of organisms directly susceptible to political and nationalistic pressures. In the US the organization is better this way.

The problems with nailing Fuentes seem similar to the problems with nailing Ferrari, or Bonds, or Armstrong. It's hard to produce hard evidence, and doing so isn't and perhaps shouldn't be a priority for law enforcement. There's a lack of will everywhere where there's lots of money involved. Where there's more money, more doping. Tiger Woods is probably as loaded up as any cyclist. No one cares in the US.

 

[sniper]

You are misinterpreting what I am saying and missing a larger point. I am not claiming that there is not a problem with doping in Spain. I am denying that there is much evidence that the problem is worse than it is in say, the US or England. I think it is obtuse to ignore that the disproportionate medal counts claimed by the US in the last 15 or so Olympics are the direct consequence of massive doping - in many cases this is proved - Jones, Montgomery, Pettigrew, Greene, Flo-Jo, Lewis, Gatlin, Harrisons, Mitchell, and I'm just naming sprinter - there are 100s. Back in the 80's everybody knew what was being done to get more medals than the Soviets. If you look at pro sports, the situation is even worse. There is almost no legal action taken against dopers in the US - BALCO and like are exceptional - and Barry Bonds got nailed on legal crime, not a drug crime.

In Spain there is a sector in the police world that is trying to do something about these cases. As hard as it may be to believe, Spanish law was inadequate in many respects before Puerta. It's only been a democracy for a few decades - one of the reactions to the dictatorship was to greatly reduce criminal penalties in many contexts - a natural reaction to the excesses of the dictatorship. Politicians like Lissasevsky are clowns. It is a problem that so much of the administration of sports is in the hands of organisms directly susceptible to political and nationalistic pressures. In the US the organization is better this way.

The problems with nailing Fuentes seem similar to the problems with nailing Ferrari, or Bonds, or Armstrong. It's hard to produce hard evidence, and doing so isn't and perhaps shouldn't be a priority for law enforcement. There's a lack of will everywhere where there's lots of money involved. Where there's more money, more doping. Tiger Woods is probably as loaded up as any cyclist. No one cares in the US.

you just point out the flaws in your own thinking:
the US are now doing something to unmask cheats such as Marion Jones, Bonds or LA.
What is Spain doing?
AC is still riding, thanks to the RFEC, thanks to Zapatero, for crying out loud.

 

[hrotha]

I like how he conveniently ignores the well-documented fact that all other sports involved in Puerto were covered up.

 

[Andynonomous]

They are all the same.

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[Bala Verde]

Today an interview with former tennis player Andrei Medvedev in a dutch newspaper 'alleges that Becker at times used PEDs and was never sanctioned'

Agassi was niet de enige die positief is bevonden. Becker heeft volgens mij ook het nodige gebruikt en ik ben ervan overtuigd dat het hem enkele keren is vergeven. Ik heb met eigen ogen gezien dat Becker tijdens een vijfsetter tegen mij op Wimbledon een pauze inlaste van wel tien minuten. Hij verdween met zijn dokter naar het toilet en de supervisor deed niets.'

Agassi is not the only one who tested positive. According to Medvedev, Becker used PEDs as well and he is convinced that some of his [positives?/doping use?] were swept under the carpet. "I have seen with my own eyes that Becker took a 10m break during a 5 setter at Wimbledon. He disappeared with his doctor to the bathroom and the umpire didn't intervene.

De strijd tegen dopinggebruik is door de ATP drastisch verscherpt. In zijn tijd waren de regel niet voor iedereen hetzelfde, zo ondervond Medvedev. 'Het was niet eerlijk. Maar de ATP kampt ook met een dilemma. Stel je voor dat Nadal of Federer op doping wordt betrapt. Ik zou hen wellicht ook niet schorsen, want ze zijn te belangrijk. Maar waar ligt de grens?'

The ATP has stepped up its efforts to combat doping in tennis. In his time, the rules didn't apply to everyone, is Medvedev's experience. "It wasn't fair. But the ATP has a dilemma; What if Nadal or Federer are caught using doping? I would most likely not sanction them either, because they are too important. But where are the limits?

 

[Andynonomous]

It has been going on for a while.

Today an interview with former tennis player Andrei Medvedev in a dutch newspaper 'alleges that Becker at times used PEDs and was never sanctioned'



Agassi is not the only one who tested positive. According to Medvedev, Becker used PEDs as well and he is convinced that some of his [positives?/doping use?] were swept under the carpet. "I have seen with my own eyes that Becker took a 10m break during a 5 setter at Wimbledon. He disappeared with his doctor to the bathroom and the umpire didn't intervene.



The ATP has stepped up its efforts to combat doping in tennis. In his time, the rules didn't apply to everyone, is Medvedev's experience. "It wasn't fair. But the ATP has a dilemma; What if Nadal or Federer are caught using doping? I would most likely not sanction them either, because they are too important. But where are the limits?

Certainly there has been PED use in tennis for the last 30 years or so.

I believe that it may have started with a couple of Eastern Europeans in the 80s (Ivan Lendl, and Martina Navratilova). As we know now, PED use was rampant in that part of the world at that time, and Lendl took "fitness" to a new level (you know, "nutrition", and physical training programs,...).

I strongly suspect however that PED use took off in the womens game in the 90s as many North American players started using (Mary Pierce, Jennifer Capriati, Williams sisters). In the men's game Agassi may have been the straw that broke the camel's back. There was no turning back to a clean sport without a strong will by the authorities to clean it up. That hasn't happened.

Nadal is a special case however. The guy has very little tennis skill. Most of his fans don't actually play the game, so have no idea that Nadal's technique is awfull. He succeeds almost solely based on his speed, strength, and endurance.

He has taken the cheating to a new level, and is VERY brazen in doing it (claiming that he could do something that no other tennis player has done before, dramatically improve his serve in the middle of his career, by changing how he holds onto his racket). It's about as believable as a cyclist "just upping his cadence" to win races.

PEDs are in all sports. Even the high skill, low physicality sports like golf and auto racing. What bugs me is that there are sham efforts to "control" the usage of PEDs in sports. When someone is as brazen as Armstrong, or Nadal, and the authorities do the exact opposite of what they should be doing (protecting, rather than targeting), they are taking us all for suckers. I don't like to be taken for a sucker.

The tennis authorities pretend that tennis is clean, and most of the media back them up on this lie. Tennis is in many ways, worse than cycling, they just hide it better.

 

[The Hitch]

I dont know how much more i can take of the commentators talking about how you can see the effects of Djokovic's gluten free diet in his endurance, in his speed.

This from the same people who say tennis players wouldnt risk doping because it wouldnt help.

Coupled with the constant fawning about how all other sports are jealous that tennis has Nadal and Federer as their posterboys (yes they actually do say that, all the time) and constant factual mistakes from people who get payed to do nothing else but watch tennis I have to conclude that Pand P are pretty tolerable by comparison.

 

[icefire]

I dont know how much more i can take of the commentators talking about how you can see the effects of Djokovic's gluten free diet in his endurance, in his speed.

This from the same people who say tennis players wouldnt risk doping because it wouldnt help.

Coupled with the constant fawning about how all other sports are jealous that tennis has Nadal and Federer as their posterboys (yes they actually do say that, all the time) and constant factual mistakes from people who get payed to do nothing else but watch tennis I have to conclude that Pand P are pretty tolerable by comparison.

That happens because you don't use the MUTE button on your remote. It really does wonders

 

[yourwelcome]

Spanish politicians have LIED (Lissavetzky claiming no tennis players, athletics, footballers were clients of Fuentes), and pressured (Socialist president) RFEC to "exonerate" Contador.

While I agree with your general sentiments, I doubt that adding 'Socialist' added any meaning here. Politicians from both right and left are happy to push the populist button when it suits them.

 

[sashimono]

...Tennis is in many ways, worse than cycling, they just hide it better.

Chess may be even worse. Recent grandmasters have been very suspicious looking. And they are permitted multiple unsupervised "medical" breaks during matches.

 

[sniper]

It was one Twitter message. It took one minute, tops, and even then he probably had some intern do it.

if something is very clearly none of your business, would you take one minute of your time to twitter about it? Or would you ask some intern to twitter it for you?
I'm puzzled here. why was Zappa concerned about it in the first place?

To me, it's quite clear that politicians were involved in the RFEC's decision making.

 

[boomcie]

Interesting topic, notably the first few pages.

What? They stand in the centre of a 10m wide court and unleash powerful and accuratre shots with spin, and moving a few metres to the left or right when need be. The ammount of accuracy power and spin in these shots is what decides whether you win or lose.

Aticipation, which they learn over the yearsm is far more important than speed and the best players dictate play, not allowing their opponent to trouble them. Doping increases your speed by fractions of a second. This wouldnt really help that much in tennis. A lot of the best players today are over 2 metres tall. They arent fast at all. They dont need to be, speed in tennis is a minor factor. It helps you get a few points, perhaps a few important ones, but over the course of the much if your sprinting to every ball you are not going to win.

Endurance is something you didn't mention in your equation and it is of course heavily influenced by using doping products. I'd say moving around the court in a 5 set match is most definitely fatiguing, also hitting the ball hard constantly and serving at top speed weighs on your fitness throughout a match.
When your endurance is really good, you will still be able to hit the balls with precision and control at the end of the 5th set, while this becomes virtually impossible when you're dead tired. This is something you have probably experienced yourself already.

I'd say agility is another important factor in tennis as well. Being able to move from left to right quickly is an essential part of the game. This is not only achieved by fast response times, but also by being able to change the motion of your body from left to right quickly. This can be a significant problem for the really big players, therefore the field is not scattered with basketball-like figures. A player that combines both length and agility will do best. That's why most of the best tennis players are within the 185-190cm range.

In womens tennis (were deficits are magnified compared to men's tennis) Lindsay Davenport was a good example. She was really big (189cm and also a little fat...), which gave her the ability to dictate play. However, her play very much lacked the element of agility, hence she never won the French open.

 

[Francois the Postman]

From Nadal to Franco... and back again....

The whole El Presidente, Franco and Fascism sub branch of this thread has been moved to the area where we want the politics to remain:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=13867

Next time you get knee deep into politics, please consider if a Nadal thread is the place to do so, or if someone should open a thread in a more appropriate subforum.

 

[Andynonomous]

Back and forth

Congratulations to Rafael Nadal for winning his 10th "grand slam".



Gee, I wonder why he goes from looking like this :

To this :

and back again ?

 

[reigarc]

dude, one picture is of his right arm and just standing there, the other pumping his left arm... compare both of nadals arms in any picture and there's a HUGE difference.
dont be so f**ing biased

Congratulations to Rafael Nadal for winning his 10th "grand slam".



Gee, I wonder why he goes from looking like this at small tournaments:

To this at grand slam tournaments :

and back again ?

 

[Andynonomous]

Biased ? No not you huh.

Before Clenbuterol

After Clenbuterol

 

[Andynonomous]

Biased ? No not you huh.