Random French guys ripping up the Tour

[blackcat]

How wide a berth will the French get

French swimmers dope massive. tennis players dope less massive. 98 World Cup, the team massively doped.

so, will the Amaury'ists make shur Jean-Christophe Péraud and Thibaut Pinot are given a wide berth? yes no? A few tactics of Armstrong, putting more pressure on the Mayo equivalent of the day

/grammar/spelling

 

[ebandit]

?

depends on how much they 'blow up' and start zig-zagging up hill.............

or is this a 'serious' thread?

Mark L

ps we already have hoggys random friench guy thread

 

[del1962]

French swimmers dope massive. tennis players dope less massive. 98 World Cup, the team massively doped.

so, will the Amaeryists make shur Jean-Christophe Péraud and Thibaut Pinot are given a wide berth? yes no? A few tactics of Armstrong, putting more pressure on the Mayo equivalent of the day

/grammar/spelling

Ask Vayer, he should be able to answer your questions

 

[Dazed and Confused]

French swimmers dope massive. tennis players dope less massive. 98 World Cup, the team massively doped.

so, will the Amaeryists make shur Jean-Christophe Péraud and Thibaut Pinot are given a wide berth? yes no? A few tactics of Armstrong, putting more pressure on the Mayo equivalent of the day

/grammar/spelling

After stage 14, Peraud is already 6 minutes behind Nibali. Pinot 5 minutes behind.

The berth will have to dwarf the Panama channel's engineering effort to yield the require result this year.

Moving forward anything can happen. But its relative easy to spot alien performances. See Sky's hammering. Risky for mid to long term business imo.

40% chance.

 

[UlleGigo]

Stopped reading at 'Random'. Nonsense.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Grinta

 

[hrotha]

There seems to be some sort of misconception that, when people say the French peloton is or was cleaner, they thought that was because of some sort of moral superiority. Far from it. The French peloton definitely was cleaner at some point, due to the French antidoping policies (including legal action) which reduced the risk-reward ratio. While a long time of being forced to ride cleanish can change the culture to some extent and thus the French peloton could still be cleaner after that pressure let go, I don't think that's particularly likely when the French riders have to compete against everybody else. It's not a closed system.

I believe there's not so much external pressure not to dope in France anymore. For the last 3-4 years, there have been signs of things changing in the French peloton. That doesn't mean French cyclists, as a whole, weren't cleaner than most everybody else before that. It's not undermined by any current French rider doing well in a GT or, indeed, being caught doping.

 

[movingtarget]

There seems to be some sort of misconception that, when people say the French peloton is or was cleaner, they thought that was because of some sort of moral superiority. Far from it. The French peloton definitely was cleaner at some point, due to the French antidoping policies (including legal action) which reduced the risk-reward ratio. While a long time of being forced to ride cleanish can change the culture to some extent and thus the French peloton could still be cleaner after that pressure let go, I don't think that's particularly likely when the French riders have to compete against everybody else. It's not a closed system.

I believe there's not so much external pressure not to dope in France anymore. For the last 3-4 years, there have been signs of things changing in the French peloton. That doesn't mean French cyclists, as a whole, weren't cleaner than most everybody else before that. It's not undermined by any current French rider doing well in a GT or, indeed, being caught doping.

There have been plenty of reasons floating around for years about the French. The don't work as hard as the non French, they are spoilt on the French teams, they don't have money or the organization of teams like Sky and BMC. In recent times there have not been many positive test results for French riders which does not mean much of course. But it has been noted. A French rider has not won the Tour for 30 odd years. Hardly podiumed any grand tours. Rolland was the great hope as was Sicard. Now we have Pinot and a few others. Maybe the development of young riders is not what it is in other countries. The reasons are probably many.

But the young guys like Bardet are not random guys and have been around for a while and have good records as amateurs. I don't see anything unacceptable about this. One of them may podium this year and considering their age it looks good for the future but there will also be some good Polish and Colombian riders to contend with as well as well as riders from other countries. Does not necessarily mean that they will get a Tour win in the next five years but it is looking a lot more optimistic than it was 5 or 10 years ago.

 

[frenchfry]

Thank you hrotha and movingtarget for these thoughtful posts.

The world isn't always black and white, of course there is always the possibility that French cyclists dope. There is however a real and legitimate anti-doping culture that isn't just a PR campaign and there have been relatively few French riders involved in controversy (putting Longo aside) so there is always hope that Pinot or Bardet are "clean". Unfortunately, sport being what it is, there are no guarantees.

Meanwhile, they are putting on a great show in the mountains so I am attempting to remain optimistic.

 

[wirral]

May I recommend Richard Virenque's Ma Verite (apologies for lack of accents - English keyboard) for an insight into French riders' and [lack of] doping culture.

 

[frenchfry]

May I recommend Richard Virenque's Ma Verite (apologies for lack of accents - English keyboard) for an insight into French riders' and [lack of] doping culture.

As I didn't read Virenque's opus I can't tell if you are being ironic or not.

Saying Virenque is representative of French riders is like saying that Armstrong is representative of all American riders, or Ricco is representative of all Italians. Personally I wouldn't believe a word he says.

I think most people who follow cycling closely agree that the French, in general, distinguished themselves with regards to an attitude change with regards to doping.

Like I say, this isn't in itself proof that French cyclists don't dope. In fact we can be sure that some do.

 

[Tonton]

As I didn't read Virenque's opus I can't tell if you are being ironic or not.

Saying Virenque is representative of French riders is like saying that Armstrong is representative of all American riders, or Ricco is representative of all Italians. Personally I wouldn't believe a word he says.

I think most people who follow cycling closely agree that the French, in general, distinguished themselves with regards to an attitude change with regards to doping.

Like I say, this isn't in itself proof that French cyclists don't dope. In fact we can be sure that some do.

I would add: although BH/France's last win was in '85, there were French contenders until the Festina affair. Virenque was 3rd in '96, 2nd in '97, the TdF was taylor-made for him in '98: he would have won.

Back to hrotha's point: the aftermath of the affair was huge in France. Newspaper l'Equipe was relentless digging, the government spent $$$ in research, the risk/reward ratio was not in a doper's favor. It wasn't so much that the French were better sportsmen or citizens.

Note: after his suspension, former contender Virenque was 16th twice and 15th once in the TdF.

 

[Tonton]

I believe there's not so much external pressure not to dope in France anymore. For the last 3-4 years, there have been signs of things changing in the French peloton. That doesn't mean French cyclists, as a whole, weren't cleaner than most everybody else before that. It's not undermined by any current French rider doing well in a GT or, indeed, being caught doping.

Signs of things changing? You could be right: there has been a little smoke with Europcar, i.e. the best way to prepare for the TdF is to recover from a knee injury looks like a duck...

 

[Tonton]

I think more of you need to read Antoine Vayer's 'Not Normal'

In that he clearly outlines that French people are better than other people.

I agree that French people are better than other people but that's not what I read in 'Not Normal'.

 

[42x16ss]

I would add: although BH/France's last win was in '85, there were French contenders until the Festina affair. Virenque was 3rd in '96, 2nd in '97, the TdF was taylor-made for him in '98: he would have won.

Back to hrotha's point: the aftermath of the affair was huge in France. Newspaper l'Equipe was relentless digging, the government spent $$$ in research, the risk/reward ratio was not in a doper's favor. It wasn't so much that the French were better sportsmen or citizens.

Note: after his suspension, former contender Virenque was 16th twice and 15th once in the TdF.

But let's not forget that post '98 Virenque used to lose huge time in the first week, then easily steal mountain points from the break (not unlike Purito this year) and usually collect a stage win as well, rocketing him back up the standings.

This got him top 10's in 99 (8th) and 00 (6th), along with a few other top 15's or thereabouts. If he still cared about the GC post Festina Virenque would have been a contender as much as anyone other than LA, Ulle and 04/05 Basso.

 

[frenchfry]

But let's not forget that post '98 Virenque used to lose huge time in the first week, then easily steal mountain points from the break (not unlike Purito this year) and usually collect a stage win as well, rocketing him back up the standings.

This got him top 10's in 99 (8th) and 00 (6th), along with a few other top 15's or thereabouts. If he still cared about the GC post Festina Virenque would have been a contender as much as anyone other than LA, Ulle and 04/05 Basso.

Let's also not forget that Virenque was always doped to the gills, before and after Festina.

 

[Tonton]

But let's not forget that post '98 Virenque used to lose huge time in the first week, then easily steal mountain points from the break (not unlike Purito this year) and usually collect a stage win as well, rocketing him back up the standings.

This got him top 10's in 99 (8th) and 00 (6th), along with a few other top 15's or thereabouts. If he still cared about the GC post Festina Virenque would have been a contender as much as anyone other than LA, Ulle and 04/05 Basso.

Well, not really. He clearly went for the polka dot jersey and one stage instead of the GC: I give you that. But for a guy who used to fly in the mountains, he wasn't anywhere near his pre-Festina level. He would take days off to recover.

Also, I think that until his ban (2001), he still thought that he could cheat the system, and may have doped. Although at the time, because of his denial and on-going investigations (including criminal proceedings), he would have been wise not to dope.

After his suspension, his public shame (I love the mosquito joke from Les Guignols), I think that he found himself lucky enough to have a second chance and stopped doping. Out of fear of being caught again. That would have been the end for him.

I think that his results are consistent with being dope-free after his ban.

 

[lllludo]

I agree that French people are better than other people but that's not what I read in 'Not Normal'.

2 things not mentioned in this thread about French AD :
- Since 1999 the French AFLD has started testing a lot more cyclists than other european NADOs (UKAD, NADA....)
- ALFD & FFC started the "passeport sanguin" in 2002. To obtain your FFC licence you needed to have a normal blood passport
At the same time Jalabert, Virenque, Moreau emigrated to Switzerland or stopped their carreer. If you add a different risk/ratio + change of mindset for the last 10 years the French peloton has been a bit cleaner than the international peloton.

This may also be the reason why Vaye likes to cite the French peloton as an example. Yes Vayer is chauvinist not for France but for Brittany his home region.
For example Vayer thinks Europcar are dodgy and says Pinot can not be trusted because he's a disciple of Grappe etc... On the other hand Vayer likes Garmin, Dan Martin and TJVG.

 

[frenchfry]

Well, not really. He clearly went for the polka dot jersey and one stage instead of the GC: I give you that. But for a guy who used to fly in the mountains, he wasn't anywhere near his pre-Festina level. He would take days off to recover.

Also, I think that until his ban (2001), he still thought that he could cheat the system, and may have doped. Although at the time, because of his denial and on-going investigations (including criminal proceedings), he would have been wise not to dope.

After his suspension, his public shame (I love the mosquito joke from Les Guignols), I think that he found himself lucky enough to have a second chance and stopped doping. Out of fear of being caught again. That would have been the end for him.

I think that his results are consistent with being dope-free after his ban.

I disagree.

He maybe didn't come back to the same level as pre-Festina, but I have no doubt that he was doped right to the end. He won Paris - Tours in 2001 at the height of the dope-fest years and on a team that was no stranger to the needle, no way he did that clean. He was like his buddy Pascal Hervé, he would do anything to win and especially anything to stay in the limelight.

Then again I really dislike Virenque, both the person and the doper-cyclist, so might not be totally objective.

The mosquito video:

http://www.meltybuzz.fr/les-guignols-nadal-n-a-pas-du-tout-aime-les-galerie-237824-769402.html

 

[Dear Wiggo]

http://www.meltybuzz.fr/les-guignols-nadal-n-a-pas-du-tout-aime-les-galerie-237824-769402.html

mdr !!

 

[Tonton]

This may also be the reason why Vaye likes to cite the French peloton as an example. Yes Vayer is chauvinist not for France but for Brittany his home region.
For example Vayer thinks Europcar are dodgy and says Pinot can not be trusted because he's a disciple of Grappe etc... On the other hand Vayer likes Garmin, Dan Martin and TJVG.

As much as I agree with your first paragraph, I don't see how regional pride would lead a Breton to be the cheerleader for Brits/Anglos.

Europcar? How Voekler went from being a 'baroudeur', average (at best) climber, to finishing 4th in the TdF, to me, is 'not normal'.

 

[difdauf]

I disagree.

He maybe didn't come back to the same level as pre-Festina, but I have no doubt that he was doped right to the end. He won Paris - Tours in 2001 at the height of the dope-fest years and on a team that was no stranger to the needle, no way he did that clean. He was like his buddy Pascal Hervé, he would do anything to win and especially anything to stay in the limelight.

Then again I really dislike Virenque, both the person and the doper-cyclist, so might not be totally objective.

The mosquito video:

http://www.meltybuzz.fr/les-guignols-nadal-n-a-pas-du-tout-aime-les-galerie-237824-769402.html

Bull****, he was in no team for Paris Tour, it was a one time trial. How could he have take advantage of any team doping policy ? And even if he did, it would require like several trucks full of doping products for Contador to win Paris-Tours without team or racing days. You have to respect that even if you don't like him which is understandable.

You probably don't know what Virenque really get through to think that he could have dopped after 2001. He paid more for doping than no one ever did. The mosquito video is only one among hundreds, his life becomes hell because of doping, you really think he tried to fix that by doping more ? There is only one Ricco.

 

[lllludo]

As much as I agree with your first paragraph, I don't see how regional pride would lead a Breton to be the cheerleader for Brits/Anglos.
Europcar? How Voekler went from being a 'baroudeur', average (at best) climber, to finishing 4th in the TdF, to me, is 'not normal'.

Just pointing out that imo Vayer is chauvinist regarding the Bretons (look at his twitter feed) and not the French. He dislikes some French riders or likes some foreign riders. His favourite rider Dan Martin ... is Irish
Vayer accused Europcar of abusing of corticoids and Bernaudeau of being dodgy.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The mosquito video is only one among hundreds, his life becomes hell because of doping, you really think he tried to fix that by doping more ? There is only one Ricco.

There are many Riccos. Caught and then caught a second time. Many.

 

[Benotti69]

Bull****, he was in no team for Paris Tour, it was a one time trial. How could he have take advantage of any team doping policy ? And even if he did, it would require like several trucks full of doping products for Contador to win Paris-Tours without team or racing days. You have to respect that even if you don't like him which is understandable.

You probably don't know what Virenque really get through to think that he could have dopped after 2001. He paid more for doping than no one ever did. The mosquito video is only one among hundreds, his life becomes hell because of doping, you really think he tried to fix that by doping more ? There is only one Ricco.

Sadly there is more than one Ricco.

Virenque paid very little for his cheating.