Rank the top 5 cyclists from your country by palmares

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Re: Re:

I think you are doing the Dutch down a little there. Certainly when I first became interested in cycling in the 70s, the Dutch were out of the same mould as the Belgians. Real hard men, people like Peter Post.

These days cycling has been diluted by the Anglo invasion

In the history of the sports, they simply are nowhere near the other big countries. That's just how it is, that's not selling them short. They have had many good riders, and there were some stronger generations, but the fact that you have to refer back 40 years should tell you something. Their current generations of GC riders is something many countries would be jealous of. Dumoulin is the only one i see winning the TDF, but Giro/Vuelta... this generation could potentially add to the Dutch tally. If MvdP decides to ride classics in the future, they would have a strong contender there as well. He could win MSR, PR, RVV, AGR...

But you forget the Netherlands in general is a pretty TDF-centric country. Also in interest.
So don't forget the Tours of the early 80's were dutch riders and dutch teams won literally half the stages. That's pretty dominant I'd say.

 

[May0maniac]

1)Bartali/Coppi
2)Coppi/Bartali
3)Gimondi

4) and 5) it gets complicated between Nibali,Moser,Saronni,Girardengo,Binda. I can see Nibali passing Gimondi if he wins Tour and World

Coppi and Bartali are in their own tier, with the third rider not even coming close in my book.
Both careers look amazing, but you have to wonder what would have happened with no war putting the 2 ridrs on hold for 5+ plus years during their peaks. Coppi had a chance to have the best palmares ever, I believe, and gets the nod over Bartali for winning Paris-Roubaix and WC.

1) Fausto Coppi
2) Gino Bartali

3) Felice Gimondi
4) Alfredo Binda
5) Francesco Moser

Nibali is knocking on the door. He would pass both Moser and Binda with a big win and probably even Gimondi with a WC+GT before calling it a career.

Fiorenzo Magni is probably just behind them, 3 Giro wins + 3 consecutive RVV wins, at 2nd place at the WC and podiums in PR, MSR and Lombardia, while competing in a really strong era with Coppi, Bartali, Kübler, Bobet and similar monsters.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

I think you are doing the Dutch down a little there. Certainly when I first became interested in cycling in the 70s, the Dutch were out of the same mould as the Belgians. Real hard men, people like Peter Post.

These days cycling has been diluted by the Anglo invasion

In the history of the sports, they simply are nowhere near the other big countries. That's just how it is, that's not selling them short. They have had many good riders, and there were some stronger generations, but the fact that you have to refer back 40 years should tell you something. Their current generations of GC riders is something many countries would be jealous of. Dumoulin is the only one i see winning the TDF, but Giro/Vuelta... this generation could potentially add to the Dutch tally. If MvdP decides to ride classics in the future, they would have a strong contender there as well. He could win MSR, PR, RVV, AGR...

But you forget the Netherlands in general is a pretty TDF-centric country. Also in interest.
So don't forget the Tours of the early 80's were dutch riders and dutch teams won literally half the stages. That's pretty dominant I'd say.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to downplay the Netherlands as a cycling nation. Only saying that they are not in the same league as the big cycling nations. But if you want to say they are more TDF-centric than say, Belgium or Italy... Dutch stagewins in the TDF (as of today) 169, Italian stagewins 264, Belgian stagewins 469. And i wouldn't call the latter two "TDF-centric" countries even, as they score (much) better in all GT's (stagewins as well as GC) as well as in classics. I mean, it's ok to say that there is a sizable gap between the countries i listed and the Netherlands, no? Hence, the explanation that there aren't as many Dutch superstars. Which started the whole discussion.

 

[del1962]

1.G
2.Rowe or Doull
4.....

4 current Welsh WT riders

 

[fantomas]

Re: Re:

1 Rolf Sørensen
2 Bjarne Riis
3 Michael Rasmussen
4 Ole Ritter
5 Jakob Fuglsang

I'm sure this will have completely changed in five years' time.

Valgren is already knocking.

Was Riis Tour taken away?

Not by UCI, no. Still not above Soerensen, I'd say.

 

[Anderis]

Re: Re:

1. R. Szurkowski
2. S. Szozda
3. M. Kwiatkowski
4. R. Majka
5. Z. Jaskuła

1. Kwiatkowski
2. Jaskuła
3. Majka
4. Spruch
5. Piasecki

Results of Szurkowski and Szozda are incomparable

True. No real comparison between ancient amateurs and curent professional riders.

My pick:

1. Kwiatkowski (WC RR, MSR, several other one day WT race wins: Amstel, Strade x 2, E3, plus Tirreno-Adriatico GC)
2. Majka (3 x TdF stage wins, 2 x KoM in TdF, 3rd in Vuelta GC, bronze medal in Olympic Games RR, several top ten GC placings in Giro, Tour de Pologne GC)
3. Jaskuła (3rd in TdF GC + TdF stage win)
4. Piasecki (5 x Giro stage win)
5. really don't know: Marczyński? Bodnar? Niemiec?

As Kwiatkowski, Majka, Marczyński, Bodnar and Niemiec are still active riders, this ranking may change significantly from one race to another.

I think Spruch should be ahead of Marczyński, Bodnar and Niemiec. In my books, a WC RR podium + a monument podium beat 1-2 GT stage wins (which is the best these riders have managed to achieve).

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Re: Re:

I think you are doing the Dutch down a little there. Certainly when I first became interested in cycling in the 70s, the Dutch were out of the same mould as the Belgians. Real hard men, people like Peter Post.

These days cycling has been diluted by the Anglo invasion

In the history of the sports, they simply are nowhere near the other big countries. That's just how it is, that's not selling them short. They have had many good riders, and there were some stronger generations, but the fact that you have to refer back 40 years should tell you something. Their current generations of GC riders is something many countries would be jealous of. Dumoulin is the only one i see winning the TDF, but Giro/Vuelta... this generation could potentially add to the Dutch tally. If MvdP decides to ride classics in the future, they would have a strong contender there as well. He could win MSR, PR, RVV, AGR...

But you forget the Netherlands in general is a pretty TDF-centric country. Also in interest.
So don't forget the Tours of the early 80's were dutch riders and dutch teams won literally half the stages. That's pretty dominant I'd say.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to downplay the Netherlands as a cycling nation. Only saying that they are not in the same league as the big cycling nations. But if you want to say they are more TDF-centric than say, Belgium or Italy... Dutch stagewins in the TDF (as of today) 169, Italian stagewins 264, Belgian stagewins 469. And i wouldn't call the latter two "TDF-centric" countries even, as they score (much) better in all GT's (stagewins as well as GC) as well as in classics. I mean, it's ok to say that there is a sizable gap between the countries i listed and the Netherlands, no? Hence, the explanation that there aren't as many Dutch superstars. Which started the whole discussion.

yah but you are counting everything. Netherlands only came up as a cycling country later, after the successes of Jansen and Zoetemelk, hence why I'm referring to the 80-ties and the teams of Post for instance.

Totals do not tell the whole story. It's easy to total victories like that. But you're working with different era's here and different parameters which you seem to forget

 

[Gigs_98]

Austria:

Totschnig
Luttenberger
...ehm?
Eisel, Brändle?
Max Bulla?

Pretty sparse. Maybe Pöstlberger already belongs on the list for wearing the pink jersey for a day.

I'd also rate Denifl higher than Brändle but to be fair, my knowledge of Austrian cyclists of the past is rather limited (especially since there just weren't any super successful riders) so there is a big likelihood that I'm missing someone.

 

[Oude Geuze]

Re:

Norway:

1. Alexander Kristoff
2. Thor Hushovd
3. Knut Knudsen
4. Edvald Boasson Hagen
5. Jostein Wilmann

I'm having a hard time separating Hushovd and Kristoff. However, Kristoff's two monuments beats Hushovd's WC triumph and TdF success in my opinion.

1. Thor Hushovd
2. Alexander Kristoff
3. Knut Knudsen
4. Edvald Boasson Hagen
5. Dag Otto Lauritzen

10 stages in tdf, a week in yellow while carrying the rainbow jersey is better imo. Wilman is outperformed by Lauritzen due to olympic medal and stage win in tdf and giro.

 

[ferryman]

Robert Millar
David Millar
Billy Bilsland
Brian Smith/Teo Hart/Andy Fenn

Obviously Graeme Obree as well

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re:

Graeme Obree - one trick pony?

 

[macbindle]

Chris Hoy?

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

Graeme Obree - one trick pony?

Good trick, mind.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Norway:

1. Alexander Kristoff
2. Thor Hushovd
3. Knut Knudsen
4. Edvald Boasson Hagen
5. Jostein Wilmann

I'm having a hard time separating Hushovd and Kristoff. However, Kristoff's two monuments beats Hushovd's WC triumph and TdF success in my opinion.

1. Thor Hushovd
2. Alexander Kristoff
3. Knut Knudsen
4. Edvald Boasson Hagen
5. Dag Otto Lauritzen

10 stages in tdf, a week in yellow while carrying the rainbow jersey is better imo. Wilman is outperformed by Lauritzen due to olympic medal and stage win in tdf and giro.

Norway is a country where things were very different at the time of the 2009 thread.

Hushovd v Kristoff is a great argument. They have really very similar palmares in terms of level. I think I would have to just about favour Hushovd. 13 GT stages is a lot, particularly with 10 in the Tour. I rate Monuments very highly against stages of anything, but at a certain point an accumulation of Tour stages has to outweigh one. Also, his non Monument classic wins are marginally better. Kristoff though is still capable of winning something big.

I wonder how many countries are there with this kind of balanced argument about the top spot? There is obviously, at the very highest level, Italy with Coppi and Bartali.

 

[jaylew]

[quote="

I think you are stretching it a bit with Dan Martin. He's not from Ireland, he's from Staffordshire. He chose to represent his mother's country of birth because it opened up larger races to him (I'm sure you know all of this)

Chris Froome isn't from my country (UK) either.

I’m not getting involved in an argument about this kind of petty nonsense. If someone with Irish parentage decides they want to compete for Ireland in a sport, you will have a hard time finding Irish people who don’t regard them as Irish. That’s hardly surprising given that people were one of Ireland’s main exports for centuries and there are many times more people of Irish descent abroad than there are in Ireland. If Brits want to get snooty about Chris Froome, that’s up to them.

To bolded: If this was true you post would have ended there.

Perhaps you should change the thread title then, because Dan Martin most certainly isn't "from" Ireland.

Explaining briefly to someone that their post is tedious, petty, unwelcome, historically ignorant and wrong is not engaging in an argument. The latter involves both a back and forth and at least the pretence of interest in the other persons point of view. I have no interest in yours and am not going to bother to pretend otherwise.

But enough to make two aggressive and insulting posts...

and Dan Martin still isn't "from" Ireland, so still not "wrong". Sorry.

You're being silly. You know what "from" means in this context. It's what country an athlete represents, same as in the Olympics...Dan Martin represents Ireland and Chris Froome represents the UK.

 

[Sestriere]

As noone has made a list for Germany, I'm gonna try it, even though my knowledge of cycling history isn't great.

1. Jan Ullrich
• GC Tour de France (’97)
• GC Vuelta (’99)
• OG RR (’00)
• 2x WC TT
• GC Tour de Suisse
• 7 Tour stages
• 2 Vuelta stages
• 5x 2nd in le Tour

2. Rudi Altig
• GC Vuelta a Espana (’62)
• WC RR (’66)
• Ronde (’64)
• MSR (’68)
• 8 TdF stages
• 6 Vuelta stages
• 4 Giro stages
• Multiple track WC

3. Erik Zabel
• 4x MSR
• 3x Paris-Tours
• Amstel
• 12 stages TdF
• 8 stages Vuelta
• 6 Green Jerseys
• 3 Blue Jerseys Vuelta
• 130+ wins O/A

These three are probably without competition, for the lower places I'm not so sure, probably:

4. Rolf Wolfshohl
• GC Vuelta a Espana (’65)
• GC Paris-Nice (’68)
• GC Euskal Bizikleta (’62)
• 2 stages TdF
• Stage Vuelta
• 3x WC Cyclocross

5. Olaf Ludwig
• OG RR (’88)
• 3 TdF stages
• Amstel
• E3-Prijs
• Green Jersey TdF
• 2x GC Course de la Paix
• Many amateur races in the east

For 4th and 5th you could make a case for Martin I guess..

 

[SHAD0W93]

I would think Germany with ullrich or zabel, russia menchov or ekimov (sp)

 

[del1962]

You could make a case for Greipel for Germany

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re: Re:

Graeme Obree - one trick pony?

Good trick, mind.

...not that competitive.

 

[ferryman]

Perhaps someone could add/correct to this from Wales and the Isle of Man:

Geraint Thomas
Luke Rowe
Owain Doule
Scott Davies

IOM

Mark Cavendish
Peter Kennaugh
Jonathan Bellis

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

Perhaps someone could add/correct to this from Wales and the Isle of Man:

Geraint Thomas
Luke Rowe
Owain Doule
Scott Davies

IOM

Mark Cavendish
Peter Kennaugh
Jonathan Bellis

Steve Joughin and Mark Christian should go in between Kennaugh and Bellis. Joughin was multiple British RR champion and one of the best domestic British pros of the 80s. Christian is a current pro with Aquablue. He just won the KoM jersey at the Tour de Suisse, which on its own would put him in fourth at least. Bellis is one of the great unlucky talents. He never made it higher than Conti level because of his accident though and never took a win higher than espoir level.

 

[120mmStem]

Re:

Canada:

1. Ryder Hesjedal
2. Steve Bauer
3. Michael Woods
4. Svein Tuft
5. Dominique Rollin or Guillaume Boivin

Maybe Svein before Woods. Until Woods does more, which he is capable of.

 

[skippo12]

Re:

You could make a case for Greipel for Germany

Not against Zabel...Germany isn`t easy but I guess most favor Ullrich over Zabel. Greipel has a case for 3th-6th rank depending on the value of stage wins vs classics and GCs. Altig is up there as well
I think Klöden is underrated but in the end his palmares isn`s as impressive (mostly because of injuries) compared to the best.
Martin has a case for top 5 but so have Ludwig and Greipel.
Remaining places go to Kittel, Degenkolb and Voigt. Ciolek gets a honorable mention because of his monument win.

In my opinion probably:
Ullrich
Zabel
Altig
Ludwig
Wolfshohl
Greipel
Klöden
Martin
Degenkolb
Kittel

honorable mention: Ciolek, Voigt

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

yah but you are counting everything. Netherlands only came up as a cycling country later, after the successes of Jansen and Zoetemelk, hence why I'm referring to the 80-ties and the teams of Post for instance.

Totals do not tell the whole story. It's easy to total victories like that. But you're working with different era's here and different parameters which you seem to forget

You are probably losing track of what the discussion was about. It was about the absence of absolute worldbeaters in the Dutch top 5. It wasn't about the Netherlands having great/long history or not. It doesn't matter if you guys only started later. You just don't have a Merckx, Bartali, Anquetil... You also missed where i specifically said you can't compare era's since you seem to think i don't know that. But again this is irrelevant to the initial discussion. If you only have 5 GT wins for the entire country combined, then obviously, you are not going to be having a "superstar" (his words) like Merckx, who won 11 GT's in his lonesome. That's the bottom line.

Just looked up a "trivial" benchmark as worldchampionships since as late as 1970. There are 4 Dutch winners, 10 Belgian winners, 12 Italian winners... If we start counting in 1980, there is only one Dutch winner in nearly 40 years. I mean, it is what it is.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If you include Ludwig's Olympic RR from the amateur days then Täve Schur must be in the top 5 with his exploits. Germany is the hardest nation to do of all because of the parallel histories. Schur and Ludwig, possibly Uwe Ampler too, belong in any self-respecting list of the best German riders, but resolving the palmarès issue is difficult.