- Jul 6, 2014
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- Dec 22, 2017
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The Hegelian said:
Only if you think his mother's nationality somehow trumps the combination of his father's nationality and Dan's birthplace, British nationality, and where he spent his entire life
The Irish mother is the only connection with Ireland, other than having dual British-Irish nationality. Choosing to represent Ireland was a decision not borne out of loyalty to his mother's birthplace but a pragmatic decision purely to open up a better level of racing opportunity.
It's a bit bollocks therefore for any Irishman to claim Martin as one of his own.
It was a minor point triggered by the word "from your country" in the thread title, only posted as a point of interest, and the only reason I'm pursuing it is because of the completely over the top rude and aggressive response from another poster.
Incidentally, the connection to Roche is not a great one. Martin's father does not speak particularly kindly of Roche and Martin himself has said that Roche has never offered him any help or advice at any point from the outset with his cycling.
- May 5, 2010
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How about currently active riders? I'll do Ecuador for a start:
1. Richard Carapaz
2. Richard Carapaz
3. Richard Carapaz
4. Richard Carapaz
5. Jhonatan Narvaez.
Apologies if there are other Ecuadorians out there.
Is "from your country" based solely on place-of-birth? Because if that's the case Denmark may have just lost our greatest (current) rider...
1. Richard Carapaz
2. Richard Carapaz
3. Richard Carapaz
4. Richard Carapaz
5. Jhonatan Narvaez.
Apologies if there are other Ecuadorians out there.
Is "from your country" based solely on place-of-birth? Because if that's the case Denmark may have just lost our greatest (current) rider...
Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
- Mar 22, 2010
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My situation is effectively identical to Dan Martin's.
Do not presume to tell me that I am not entitled to consider myself Irish.
Do not presume to tell me that I am not entitled to consider myself Irish.
Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
- Mar 22, 2010
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So all this is just being pedantic about one word in the thread title, and deliberate;y ignoring the entire thrust and meaning of it. There is a name for someone who does that, and I think you'll find it incurs a ban...
- Dec 22, 2017
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Armchair cyclist said:
No, it was a minor point not presented in an inflammatory manner that was seized upon by another poster and respond to insultingly, which you would k ow if you'd read the entire thread.
Hit the report button if you think it is trolling. To be honest I'm about done with this forum anyway.
- Jun 27, 2013
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Re:
This is a stupid topic but it pissed me off enough to sound off on it:
Your definition of nationality is, to be polite, very incomplete. IMO a dignified definition is that people belong to the countries of their birth, ancestry and long-term residence.
Anyway, Froome was born to two British parents living in Kenya, which under international law means he's British. If you'd have read his book you'd know the family considered themselves British whilst in Kenya. They'd even have Sunday roast dinners etc etc. Yes, he hasn't lived in the Uk, but neither do 10 million others who hold British passports and it doesn't change his ancestry.
Again, as other reasonable people have explained to you, it's a similar situation with Dan Martin.
macbindle said:
This is a stupid topic but it pissed me off enough to sound off on it:
Your definition of nationality is, to be polite, very incomplete. IMO a dignified definition is that people belong to the countries of their birth, ancestry and long-term residence.
Anyway, Froome was born to two British parents living in Kenya, which under international law means he's British. If you'd have read his book you'd know the family considered themselves British whilst in Kenya. They'd even have Sunday roast dinners etc etc. Yes, he hasn't lived in the Uk, but neither do 10 million others who hold British passports and it doesn't change his ancestry.
Again, as other reasonable people have explained to you, it's a similar situation with Dan Martin.
Armchair Cyclist
Moderator
- Mar 22, 2010
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Re:
I have read the whole thread. Don't assume that the same reading will lead me to the same conclusion as you make.
macbindle said:
I have read the whole thread. Don't assume that the same reading will lead me to the same conclusion as you make.
- Feb 20, 2010
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Re: Re:
Heinrich Haussler is another example to use - born in Australia to a German father and an Australian mother, he was entitled to both nationalities; he used German Staatsangehörigkeit since Germany has historically been jus sanguinis instead of jus solis (which had caused a great deal of trouble with second-generation migrants not being entitled to German citizenship even if born there and with no connection to their official nationality, though this has now been resolved with a) and the German nationality was much more convenient for him, but once he was established he decided he wanted to represent the country he grew up in; at a later point, no longer in the position to represent Australia in international competitions, he decided he wanted to go back to using the German nationality as he'd have more chance of being able to race events like the Worlds and Olympics that way.
Another category is the diaspora riders. Unai Etxebarria always raised a few debates on the board; born to Basque parents in Caracas, Venezuela, he moved to Durango as a child, back to his parents' homeland, and was entitled to Spanish nationality if he chose it on the same basis as Froome, however for political reasons he chose to continue to represent Venezuela. A similar situation arose with the footballer Fernando Amorebieta, who was born to Basque parents in Venezuela, raised in Iurreta (which has been subsumed by Durango to continue the parallels with Etxebarria), and so was considered eligible for Athletic Bilbao, while simultaneously retaining his Venezuelan nationality. A counterpoint is provided by tennis ace Garbiñe Muguruza, who has a Basque father and a Venezuelan mother, was born in Caracas, the family similarly moved to Spain in her youth, but they settled in Catalunya rather than País Vasco, and so Muguruza has not had the same reluctance to adopt the Spanish nationality she's entitled to that Etxebarria or Amorebieta had.
As cycling is not held as national teams except on fairly rare occasions at the Worlds, Continental Championships and Olympic Games, the number of people who carry flags of convenience for competition purposes are fairly limited, so the number of people who are designated from countries they have little connection to are few. Froome is one of the nearest that you could argue to this type of athlete, mainly as the British flag next to his name may have been a factor in his signing for Sky rather than being left to drift elsewhere, but the reasoning for that is fairly clear as I've put forward above - he was entitled to British nationality and it was more beneficial to him; same with Dan Martin using the flag of his mother - he's half-Irish so has every right to choose to represent that country, however the decision was at least in part motivated by the attitudes of British Cycling at the time meaning that the Irish federation would be more beneficial to his career at the time.
There aren't cases like we often see in other endurance sports like athletics and cross-country skiing, where we had for example a Korean biathlon relay team made up almost entirely of Russian imports at the Olympics, or the continual trading away of fringe Russian talents to the Belarusian, Ukrainian and Kazakh teams (and subsequently Ukrainians to Moldova or Romania, and also the likes of Jakov Fak moving from Croatia to Slovenia because he'd already been a de facto member of their team anyway for training purposes), or like in the athletics countries like Turkey, Bahrain and Qatar literally buying in Kenyan and Ethiopian distance runners to represent them. There are occasionally stories of this kind of thing, mostly for the women it must be said (Pavlukhina's transfer to Azerbaijan and the controversial story about Astana and Hanna Solovey coming to blows over an alleged attempted enforced transfer to Kazakhstan spring to mind), and there's also cases like Katrin Garfoot, a German who chose to represent her husband's nation, Australia, after marriage; Eugenia Bujak is an interesting case too, having been born to Polish parents in Lithuania, representing Poland, and now choosing to represent Slovenia from this year, having been based in the country for several years. There were a few examples among the men in the 90s, with the post-Wende athletes, and obviously Tchmil is the most famous example of this, with his continual nation-switching.
That's perhaps the nearest we get to what we see in football, with overspill players from countries with a surplus of talent adopting the nationality of the country they're playing in once they've been there a while, marry or similar (so not talking about the likes of Hakim Zayech, Victor Moses or - Luis Oliveira was the first I was aware of, a naturalized Belgian citizen born in Brazil who married a Belgian woman, but there are now many; Deco, Diego Costa and Marlos spring to mind immediately, and in the World Cup we've seen several, even in some very established teams - Mario Fernandes for Russia, for example. And you have the French 1998 team with several players who were given French passports because of their footballing skills, of course. Thiago is an especially interesting one, born in Italy to Brazilian parents and moving to Spain at 5, then to Brazil which was his parents' homeland but that he had never lived in before, then back to Spain when Barcelona showed interest at 14.
The problem is, the English language does not have the facility to differentiate like, say, German Staatsangehörigkeit and Volksangehörigkeit. Both are translated as "nationality". Until 2008, Froome was Staatsangehörigkeit Kenyan, but with two British parents he was Volksangehörigkeit British. In 2008 he changed his Staatsangehörigkeit to Britain, which as the son of two British parents he was entitled to do, and certainly this kind of thing for people with the entitlement to multiple nationalities or passports is common especially as, living and working in the EU, the British passport is probably a lot more convenient than the Kenyan one (even taking the current political situation into account). Less clear is the case where one passport is no more convenient than the other - however despite being born in Ireland and raised there, did Christopher Juul Jensen ever have Staatsangehörigkeit Irish? I don't actually know and obviously as long as I've been aware of him he's been listed as Danish.Oliwright said:
Heinrich Haussler is another example to use - born in Australia to a German father and an Australian mother, he was entitled to both nationalities; he used German Staatsangehörigkeit since Germany has historically been jus sanguinis instead of jus solis (which had caused a great deal of trouble with second-generation migrants not being entitled to German citizenship even if born there and with no connection to their official nationality, though this has now been resolved with a) and the German nationality was much more convenient for him, but once he was established he decided he wanted to represent the country he grew up in; at a later point, no longer in the position to represent Australia in international competitions, he decided he wanted to go back to using the German nationality as he'd have more chance of being able to race events like the Worlds and Olympics that way.
Another category is the diaspora riders. Unai Etxebarria always raised a few debates on the board; born to Basque parents in Caracas, Venezuela, he moved to Durango as a child, back to his parents' homeland, and was entitled to Spanish nationality if he chose it on the same basis as Froome, however for political reasons he chose to continue to represent Venezuela. A similar situation arose with the footballer Fernando Amorebieta, who was born to Basque parents in Venezuela, raised in Iurreta (which has been subsumed by Durango to continue the parallels with Etxebarria), and so was considered eligible for Athletic Bilbao, while simultaneously retaining his Venezuelan nationality. A counterpoint is provided by tennis ace Garbiñe Muguruza, who has a Basque father and a Venezuelan mother, was born in Caracas, the family similarly moved to Spain in her youth, but they settled in Catalunya rather than País Vasco, and so Muguruza has not had the same reluctance to adopt the Spanish nationality she's entitled to that Etxebarria or Amorebieta had.
As cycling is not held as national teams except on fairly rare occasions at the Worlds, Continental Championships and Olympic Games, the number of people who carry flags of convenience for competition purposes are fairly limited, so the number of people who are designated from countries they have little connection to are few. Froome is one of the nearest that you could argue to this type of athlete, mainly as the British flag next to his name may have been a factor in his signing for Sky rather than being left to drift elsewhere, but the reasoning for that is fairly clear as I've put forward above - he was entitled to British nationality and it was more beneficial to him; same with Dan Martin using the flag of his mother - he's half-Irish so has every right to choose to represent that country, however the decision was at least in part motivated by the attitudes of British Cycling at the time meaning that the Irish federation would be more beneficial to his career at the time.
There aren't cases like we often see in other endurance sports like athletics and cross-country skiing, where we had for example a Korean biathlon relay team made up almost entirely of Russian imports at the Olympics, or the continual trading away of fringe Russian talents to the Belarusian, Ukrainian and Kazakh teams (and subsequently Ukrainians to Moldova or Romania, and also the likes of Jakov Fak moving from Croatia to Slovenia because he'd already been a de facto member of their team anyway for training purposes), or like in the athletics countries like Turkey, Bahrain and Qatar literally buying in Kenyan and Ethiopian distance runners to represent them. There are occasionally stories of this kind of thing, mostly for the women it must be said (Pavlukhina's transfer to Azerbaijan and the controversial story about Astana and Hanna Solovey coming to blows over an alleged attempted enforced transfer to Kazakhstan spring to mind), and there's also cases like Katrin Garfoot, a German who chose to represent her husband's nation, Australia, after marriage; Eugenia Bujak is an interesting case too, having been born to Polish parents in Lithuania, representing Poland, and now choosing to represent Slovenia from this year, having been based in the country for several years. There were a few examples among the men in the 90s, with the post-Wende athletes, and obviously Tchmil is the most famous example of this, with his continual nation-switching.
That's perhaps the nearest we get to what we see in football, with overspill players from countries with a surplus of talent adopting the nationality of the country they're playing in once they've been there a while, marry or similar (so not talking about the likes of Hakim Zayech, Victor Moses or - Luis Oliveira was the first I was aware of, a naturalized Belgian citizen born in Brazil who married a Belgian woman, but there are now many; Deco, Diego Costa and Marlos spring to mind immediately, and in the World Cup we've seen several, even in some very established teams - Mario Fernandes for Russia, for example. And you have the French 1998 team with several players who were given French passports because of their footballing skills, of course. Thiago is an especially interesting one, born in Italy to Brazilian parents and moving to Spain at 5, then to Brazil which was his parents' homeland but that he had never lived in before, then back to Spain when Barcelona showed interest at 14.
- Jun 7, 2011
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el chava said:
I've posted a top 5
viewtopic.php?p=2284302#p2284302
Someone added viewtopic.php?p=2284445#p2284445
- Mar 19, 2009
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None of that means a thing - almost everyone here already knows all that about Dan's situation as well as Froome's situation, Haussler's, etc...you know damn well that "from" in this context means what country you represent and you chose to troll, knowing you'd get contrary responses from people. When Olympic announcers are announcing someone as from X country, are you the guy that has to point out that you don't consider he/she to be from said country just because they represent it?macbindle said:The Hegelian said:
Only if you think his mother's nationality somehow trumps the combination of his father's nationality and Dan's birthplace, British nationality, and where he spent his entire life
The Irish mother is the only connection with Ireland, other than having dual British-Irish nationality. Choosing to represent Ireland was a decision not borne out of loyalty to his mother's birthplace but a pragmatic decision purely to open up a better level of racing opportunity.
It's a bit bollocks therefore for any Irishman to claim Martin as one of his own.
It was a minor point triggered by the word "from your country" in the thread title, only posted as a point of interest, and the only reason I'm pursuing it is because of the completely over the top rude and aggressive response from another poster.
Incidentally, the connection to Roche is not a great one. Martin's father does not speak particularly kindly of Roche and Martin himself has said that Roche has never offered him any help or advice at any point from the outset with his cycling.
- Dec 22, 2017
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Great to hear that you represent the collective hivemind and know exactly what other forum members know or don't know.
Who would have thought that this:
...pretty innocuous and certainly polite post would spark such a stream of aggresive bile from two or three people who clearly could start a fight in an empty room.
Know what? This thread had moved on. But you just had to poke in your nose and keep it going, didn't you. Don't bother replying, you are just another person about to be added to the ignore list.
Who would have thought that this:
...pretty innocuous and certainly polite post would spark such a stream of aggresive bile from two or three people who clearly could start a fight in an empty room.
Know what? This thread had moved on. But you just had to poke in your nose and keep it going, didn't you. Don't bother replying, you are just another person about to be added to the ignore list.
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