- Jul 16, 2011
- 1,561
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- 10,510
Re: Re:
Maybe he's lucky because of his youth. For me, the '87 and '89 Tours stand out (in that order).
Netserk said:
Maybe he's lucky because of his youth. For me, the '87 and '89 Tours stand out (in that order).
6/10 from me ....
to me it feels a bit weird of Tom D. winning this ... sure, he's a fantastic ITT specialist and a decent climber, but even though the ascents were rather long than steep I would have expected much more attacks on his position ...
positive:
- Tom Dumoulin - a great fighter and proving you don't necessarily need the best team to win
- Thibaut Pinot - in this form and consistency was a great surprise to me, he seems to have developed
- Fernando Gaviria - not my favorite rider, but you have to give him kudos
- Bob Jungels - another one who seems to be devoloping
- Tejay Van Garderen - of course his (unrealistic) ambitions are a bit different, but his display on stage 18 was marvellous
negative:
- Tom Dumoulin - trash talking is ok if you have the vocation, but Tom is obviously better pedaling than talking
- Nairo Quintana - once you attack you should go and not start hesitating
- Vincenzo Nibali - somehow this giro was designed for the 'shark' (some ITT, long not to steep climbs), but his teeth were not biting ...
- Team Sky - some bad luck, ok, but, apart of Mikel Landa, rather disappointing
- Steven Kruijswijck - missed the chance 2016 to become the first dutch GT winner since the great Joop Z - missed it and now he's in the shade of Tom D ... not sure he will ever recover
to me it feels a bit weird of Tom D. winning this ... sure, he's a fantastic ITT specialist and a decent climber, but even though the ascents were rather long than steep I would have expected much more attacks on his position ...
positive:
- Tom Dumoulin - a great fighter and proving you don't necessarily need the best team to win
- Thibaut Pinot - in this form and consistency was a great surprise to me, he seems to have developed
- Fernando Gaviria - not my favorite rider, but you have to give him kudos
- Bob Jungels - another one who seems to be devoloping
- Tejay Van Garderen - of course his (unrealistic) ambitions are a bit different, but his display on stage 18 was marvellous
negative:
- Tom Dumoulin - trash talking is ok if you have the vocation, but Tom is obviously better pedaling than talking
- Nairo Quintana - once you attack you should go and not start hesitating
- Vincenzo Nibali - somehow this giro was designed for the 'shark' (some ITT, long not to steep climbs), but his teeth were not biting ...
- Team Sky - some bad luck, ok, but, apart of Mikel Landa, rather disappointing
- Steven Kruijswijck - missed the chance 2016 to become the first dutch GT winner since the great Joop Z - missed it and now he's in the shade of Tom D ... not sure he will ever recover
- Apr 15, 2016
- 4,227
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After thinking a bit this was definitely better than the 2009 and 2014 Giros as well. (Not to mention 2013 and 2012)
I would probably give this a 4,5 which makes my vote there 5.
So it would be sth like this betwewen 2009-2012-2013-2014-2017 Giros
1. 2017-4,5 points
2. 2009-3,5 points
3. 2014-3 points (without Val Martello it would have been a 0,5-1)
4. 2013-2,5 points
5. 2012-1,5 points
I would probably give this a 4,5 which makes my vote there 5.
So it would be sth like this betwewen 2009-2012-2013-2014-2017 Giros
1. 2017-4,5 points
2. 2009-3,5 points
3. 2014-3 points (without Val Martello it would have been a 0,5-1)
4. 2013-2,5 points
5. 2012-1,5 points
- Mar 13, 2009
- 29,413
- 3,482
- 28,180
Anyway, my real rating (w/o obvious national bias) would be around a 5/4.
Why? Because all the tension in the end was more due to Dumoulins own mistakes then to strong moves from opponents:
-Shitgate (cost him 2 minutes, well at least 1m30 if you say Q/Nibs would've dropped him anyway)
-Giving a free minute to Zakarin/Pinot on a stage where he was perhaps the strongest himself
-Criticising Nibali/quintana after stage (igniting anger in Nibali is never a good idea)
-Dropping in a downhill when his own team is riding (costing a lot of energy on a bad legs day already)
All in all, he could've had the Giro wrapped up after stage 18 in normal circumstances. And then most of us would've rated the Giro even lower. There was simply nobody capable of really hurting anyone uphill, least of all Dumoulin, who was already by far the strongest TT-er. So then it becomes just as bad as when Froome is in a TT heavy GT. There's not much you can do. Yes you can win back a minute on a bad day (like Q on Alpe). But it's never going to be enough.
Why? Because all the tension in the end was more due to Dumoulins own mistakes then to strong moves from opponents:
-Shitgate (cost him 2 minutes, well at least 1m30 if you say Q/Nibs would've dropped him anyway)
-Giving a free minute to Zakarin/Pinot on a stage where he was perhaps the strongest himself
-Criticising Nibali/quintana after stage (igniting anger in Nibali is never a good idea)
-Dropping in a downhill when his own team is riding (costing a lot of energy on a bad legs day already)
All in all, he could've had the Giro wrapped up after stage 18 in normal circumstances. And then most of us would've rated the Giro even lower. There was simply nobody capable of really hurting anyone uphill, least of all Dumoulin, who was already by far the strongest TT-er. So then it becomes just as bad as when Froome is in a TT heavy GT. There's not much you can do. Yes you can win back a minute on a bad day (like Q on Alpe). But it's never going to be enough.
I thought this was the worst and most boring Giro I have ever watched. The only reason there was any excitement at all was because Dumoulin chose to take a dump at the most critical place in the race. Before that it was completely boring. Post dump, there was excitement, but only because of the time recovered due to the road dump.
No weather. Not much for exciting mountain top finishes. On sprint days, the sprinter teams rarely took up the race until < 10 km to go. During the first two weeks I felt like I was always watching the riders completely spread across the road.
Essentially there were only a couple of actual exciting race days in terms of cycling. The majority of the excitement was not from racing. The motorbike accident with Thomas and the toilet break and the controversial smack talk was the only excitement. I want leg based excitement in a bike race.
No weather. Not much for exciting mountain top finishes. On sprint days, the sprinter teams rarely took up the race until < 10 km to go. During the first two weeks I felt like I was always watching the riders completely spread across the road.
Essentially there were only a couple of actual exciting race days in terms of cycling. The majority of the excitement was not from racing. The motorbike accident with Thomas and the toilet break and the controversial smack talk was the only excitement. I want leg based excitement in a bike race.
- Aug 20, 2009
- 97
- 0
- 8,680
6 out of 10 thanks to the GC drama.
The course really wasn't balanced. With that much TT, there needed to be more mountains. Most of the mountain top finish days really only had one climb, at the end. The last week wasn't mountainous enough for the climbers to make up time against the TT'ers.
If TD hadn't stopped to take a dump, the last week would have been a procession. He had 2 1/2 + minutes before he started brown capping, hardly the sign of a balanced route
The sprints weren't really strongly contested. It seems that AG was happy with his win and then went home leaving the sprints for FG.
What I really came away with is huge respect for Pinot. He is an amazing rider and has a lot of fight in him. Became a big fan of his due to his attacking style .
By trying to visit every region the organizers pushed themselves into a corner. The first week was completely forgettable. The long boring days seems to sap the peloton of much needed strength and grinta for the following weeks.
It'll still be better than the Tour.
The course really wasn't balanced. With that much TT, there needed to be more mountains. Most of the mountain top finish days really only had one climb, at the end. The last week wasn't mountainous enough for the climbers to make up time against the TT'ers.
If TD hadn't stopped to take a dump, the last week would have been a procession. He had 2 1/2 + minutes before he started brown capping, hardly the sign of a balanced route
The sprints weren't really strongly contested. It seems that AG was happy with his win and then went home leaving the sprints for FG.
What I really came away with is huge respect for Pinot. He is an amazing rider and has a lot of fight in him. Became a big fan of his due to his attacking style .
By trying to visit every region the organizers pushed themselves into a corner. The first week was completely forgettable. The long boring days seems to sap the peloton of much needed strength and grinta for the following weeks.
It'll still be better than the Tour.
- Jul 29, 2016
- 634
- 1
- 0
Re:
I do not agree regarding the lenght of TT. If you will look back and remember time of Miguelon, there were much longer TT and all the favourites have to handle them. Who was not capable to, was out of competition. This way the GTs were raced until 2005. Since 2006 number of TT kilometers decreased and people like Rasmussen and other polka dot guys were capable of wining GT. In my opinion it is a mistake to decrease lenght of TT since winner of GT have to be more complex rider than those mountains goats who are unable to do anything else than to sprint uphill few kilometers... .
papisimo98 said:
I do not agree regarding the lenght of TT. If you will look back and remember time of Miguelon, there were much longer TT and all the favourites have to handle them. Who was not capable to, was out of competition. This way the GTs were raced until 2005. Since 2006 number of TT kilometers decreased and people like Rasmussen and other polka dot guys were capable of wining GT. In my opinion it is a mistake to decrease lenght of TT since winner of GT have to be more complex rider than those mountains goats who are unable to do anything else than to sprint uphill few kilometers... .
- Aug 5, 2009
- 15,733
- 8,127
- 28,180
Re: Re:
I have to admit the 2010 Giro was pretty memorable just with the variety of stages and ups and downs of the racing. Maybe one of the greatest courses in recent history. I still enjoyed this year's race though mainly for the fact that the top five were still in contention for so long and Dumoulin kept starting to crack but never did fully. I still think a healthy Sky could have changed the race and put more pressure on Dumoulin.
Netserk said:
I have to admit the 2010 Giro was pretty memorable just with the variety of stages and ups and downs of the racing. Maybe one of the greatest courses in recent history. I still enjoyed this year's race though mainly for the fact that the top five were still in contention for so long and Dumoulin kept starting to crack but never did fully. I still think a healthy Sky could have changed the race and put more pressure on Dumoulin.
Re: Re:
this ....
besides, this was a very mountanous Giro, I wonder how much more "mountains" some guys wish to have .... this is Giro d'Italia not Tour des Alpes ....
between 1960 - 2005 TdF was won mainly by the guy with the best TT skills (Anquetil, Lemond, Indurain) or at least being an all-rounder (Merckx, Hinault, ...). Only twice it was won by a pure climber (Lucien Van Impe 1976 and Marco Pantani 1998)
the Giro has turned into somewhat of a climbing GT since mid 90s and pure climbers like Basso, Contador, Cunego, Di Luca, Gotti, Quintana, Pantani or Simoni have won (since 97) a total of 13 Giros against the allrounders totalling 8 (Dumoulin, Garzelli, Hesjedal, Menchov, Nibali, Savoldelli) ... still it shouldn't be pure climbing all along (that would be quite boring as well, unless you cheer for Contador or Quintana)
lartiste said:
this ....
besides, this was a very mountanous Giro, I wonder how much more "mountains" some guys wish to have .... this is Giro d'Italia not Tour des Alpes ....
between 1960 - 2005 TdF was won mainly by the guy with the best TT skills (Anquetil, Lemond, Indurain) or at least being an all-rounder (Merckx, Hinault, ...). Only twice it was won by a pure climber (Lucien Van Impe 1976 and Marco Pantani 1998)
the Giro has turned into somewhat of a climbing GT since mid 90s and pure climbers like Basso, Contador, Cunego, Di Luca, Gotti, Quintana, Pantani or Simoni have won (since 97) a total of 13 Giros against the allrounders totalling 8 (Dumoulin, Garzelli, Hesjedal, Menchov, Nibali, Savoldelli) ... still it shouldn't be pure climbing all along (that would be quite boring as well, unless you cheer for Contador or Quintana)
- Jun 30, 2014
- 7,060
- 2
- 0
Re: Re:
The Giro only became really TT heavy durning the Moser/Saronni years, Merckx won the Giro 5 times and not a single one of those routes featured more than 60km of ITT.
Yes, but the Giro isn't the Tour de France.loge1884 said:
The Giro only became really TT heavy durning the Moser/Saronni years, Merckx won the Giro 5 times and not a single one of those routes featured more than 60km of ITT.
Re: Re:
There is lot more to be argue about, like Basso pure climber and Nibali all rounder, Basso had much better TT then Nibali and Contador is even better TT rider then Basso was
And I do not agree that there should be more TT km´s, in era like this where is much bigger problem to make difference in mountains due to speed there should be less TT, like in Tour de France last years, otherwise it will be super boring like worst GT ever, Tour 2012
Netserk said:
There is lot more to be argue about, like Basso pure climber and Nibali all rounder, Basso had much better TT then Nibali and Contador is even better TT rider then Basso was
And I do not agree that there should be more TT km´s, in era like this where is much bigger problem to make difference in mountains due to speed there should be less TT, like in Tour de France last years, otherwise it will be super boring like worst GT ever, Tour 2012
- Mar 13, 2009
- 29,413
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Basso was only a good ITT-er for like 2 years, when he was jacked up from Puerto.
He's been abysmal in ITT's for most of his career. Nibali is much better.
He's been abysmal in ITT's for most of his career. Nibali is much better.
- Jul 27, 2009
- 6,592
- 2,493
- 20,680
Basso only was good at tt's in 2005 & 2006. Y'all know why.
The 2007 Tour the chicken would've won was pretty tt loaded by today's standards. Rasmussen simply produced a decent tt since he never has been as horrible against the clock as 2005 would've suggested. Plus the chemicals of course. But he hardly benefited from a tt less route. He had to make his move on the way to Tignes and would've succeeded since he was by far the best climber in the race except on Peyresourde.
Pantani rode the tt's of his life in 98. Probably thanks to Aranesp? That discussion belongs elsewher! But he hardly would've won the Tour without that crazy Galibier attack and Leblanc becoming his hidden super-domestique. In fact, at least for a pure climber, the pirate's tt was actually surprisingly decent at the 1997 Tour already. He led the first time check, the hilly part, of the first tt until Ulle came along. Riis made up time in the downhill and on flat terrain while Virenque simply got dragged along by Ulle without consequences.
Also the amount of tt's only got somehow adapted to new racing style in the zeros. Especially in aftermath of the Armstrong year's. Ironically the Giro, apart from the 80s, always has been the climbers gt. Even It's in fact from 2008/2009 onwards the Giro produced balanced 90s style routes. Still somehow adapted to today's racing style with a bit fewer tt miles. The heavy decrease of tt miles happend in this century. Especially at the Tour and at the Vuelta which became some kind of cheap entertainment race. But imho it's hardly a real gt and it hardly ever has been really. Although our Spanish posters might harshly disagree with me about this one.
The 2007 Tour the chicken would've won was pretty tt loaded by today's standards. Rasmussen simply produced a decent tt since he never has been as horrible against the clock as 2005 would've suggested. Plus the chemicals of course. But he hardly benefited from a tt less route. He had to make his move on the way to Tignes and would've succeeded since he was by far the best climber in the race except on Peyresourde.
Pantani rode the tt's of his life in 98. Probably thanks to Aranesp? That discussion belongs elsewher! But he hardly would've won the Tour without that crazy Galibier attack and Leblanc becoming his hidden super-domestique. In fact, at least for a pure climber, the pirate's tt was actually surprisingly decent at the 1997 Tour already. He led the first time check, the hilly part, of the first tt until Ulle came along. Riis made up time in the downhill and on flat terrain while Virenque simply got dragged along by Ulle without consequences.
Also the amount of tt's only got somehow adapted to new racing style in the zeros. Especially in aftermath of the Armstrong year's. Ironically the Giro, apart from the 80s, always has been the climbers gt. Even It's in fact from 2008/2009 onwards the Giro produced balanced 90s style routes. Still somehow adapted to today's racing style with a bit fewer tt miles. The heavy decrease of tt miles happend in this century. Especially at the Tour and at the Vuelta which became some kind of cheap entertainment race. But imho it's hardly a real gt and it hardly ever has been really. Although our Spanish posters might harshly disagree with me about this one.
- Jun 30, 2014
- 7,060
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Yes, that version of Basso could proably walk on water, he also outsprinted a young Greipel, it's a bad comparison.
The strange thing is that he was still world class on really steep climbs, despite being around 69kg heavy, so you'd think that he'd be able to produce the wattage to be competitive in an ITT, but of course it's also about your position/being aero on the TT bike and being able to produce the same kind of wattage on a TT bike while riding in a good position.
Nibali was always good in ITTs (3rd in the MJ WC ITT in 2002 and 3rd in the U23 ITT in 2004), he was always an allrounder.
The strange thing is that he was still world class on really steep climbs, despite being around 69kg heavy, so you'd think that he'd be able to produce the wattage to be competitive in an ITT, but of course it's also about your position/being aero on the TT bike and being able to produce the same kind of wattage on a TT bike while riding in a good position.
Nibali was always good in ITTs (3rd in the MJ WC ITT in 2002 and 3rd in the U23 ITT in 2004), he was always an allrounder.
- Mar 13, 2009
- 29,413
- 3,482
- 28,180
I think GT's are a laughing stock in TT kilometers these days. So people calling the Giro TT heavy are funny. It's 70km. It's nothing.
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