Reactions and comments to The CIRC report

[D-Queued]

You may be eligible to take the p*ss out of triathletes, but in my view, no-one can legitimately do so until they've done some serious swimming. A mass start open water swim or interval training in the pool with the "Masters Swimmers" who tend to gravitate towards triathlon would provide food for thought!

Cycling is as hard as you make it. Swimming is just hard even without smacking your legs on the wall when you f*** up a tumble turn!

I was just making a joke.

Swimming is tough all by itself. That is before you get run over, kicked, punched and clawed during a mass start, open water frenzy.

Dave.

 

[Catwhoorg]

My first (and to date only) mass start swim was an experience to be sure.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I was just making a joke.

Swimming is tough all by itself. That is before you get run over, kicked, punched and clawed during a mass start, open water frenzy.

Dave.

Gotcha. Not always easy to tell online.

 

[D-Queued]

No problem.

Back to reactions and comments, this one surprised me:

"Column: Time to Rethink but Not Reduce Lance Armstrong's Ban"

Surprising in that it makes total sense, save for the analogy at the start along with the ultimate conclusion that:

"The vast majority of riders were doping, looting the store. But Armstrong was the only rider banned for life in 2012 by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. Former teammates who testified against him were banned for just six months.

This isn't justice and now looks more like a crucifixion"

Yes, there is and was an inequity. And, various cyclists, managers, and others may have thus far escaped reasonable justice.

But, who was really crucified and who was doing the crucifying?

Who provided the bogus prescription? Someone planned and perpetrated both the act of taking cortisone, as well as trying to hide it with the TUE. All the UCI did was miss a "crucial and fateful" opportunity.

Whose lawyers "doctored findings from what was meant to be an independent investigation"?

Who was crucified? The sport was crucified, and Cancer Jesus himself conducted it.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

No problem.

Back to reactions and comments, this one surprised me:

"Column: Time to Rethink but Not Reduce Lance Armstrong's Ban"

Surprising in that it makes total sense, save for the analogy at the start along with the ultimate conclusion that:



Yes, there is and was an inequity. And, various cyclists, managers, and others may have thus far escaped reasonable justice.

But, who was really crucified and who was doing the crucifying?

Who provided the bogus prescription? Someone planned and perpetrated both the act of taking cortisone, as well as trying to hide it with the TUE. All the UCI did was miss a "crucial and fateful" opportunity.

Whose lawyers "doctored findings from what was meant to be an independent investigation"?

Who was crucified? The sport was crucified, and Cancer Jesus himself conducted it.

Dave.

Succinctly put. Welldone.

 

[mrhender]

Them's fighting words. I'll bet WADA was p!ssed. But, was it really a "shock" that Hein wrote it? They could well have suspected it all along. Nice to have the confirmation, though.

Confirmation of organized deception, slander and libel?

Sounds like time for a lawsuit!

Dave.

I don't think we will see any lawsuits from WADA.

If their view on Cookson was different they maybe would.

But this turd seems done and dusted. I think they will find enough satisfaction in the CIRC document confirming the wrongdoings..

 

[mrhender]

Nicole Cooke reacts in an interesting and critical piece:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/11/circ-report-anti-doping-cycling-nicole-cooke

Excerpts:

I don't think it is at all right that Chris should have the race and prize money taken off him retrospectively but Cookson needs to issue a very clear message: he should be apologising to the rest of the riders for failing them. That TUE application should not have been approved; Froome and Sky should have had a clear choice of either riding without steroids or pulling out of the race.

I never found I could be anywhere near the front of a long race when I was ill. Verbruggen and McQuaid stand accused of favouring Armstrong; Cookson should not be in a position that leaves him open to accusations of favouring a Sky rider, the Sky team of which Cookson was a founding board member.

On the wider issue of doping, Wada needs some effective legislation passed that criminalises athletic doping and the provisioning of this criminal activity, with cross-border reach.

Intelligence needs to be used far more effectively to target suspicious athletes. I have shared with authorities, many years ago, and several times since, my first-hand information about a member of staff who told me they were supplying another rider. That person still works in the sport; I don’t think anything has ever been done to target them or the riders who work with that person. The anti-doping authorities need to recruit staff who are far more determined.

Currently the crooks are out there stealing, time and time again.

The whereabouts system can be easily fooled and is not fit for purpose. It is pleasing to see that the CIRC report identifies that riders are also circumventing the blood passport.

The final step I recommend is for retrospective testing and a longer statute of limitations to secure sanctions. There will always be new drugs, such as the weight-loss drug Aicar, which enables riders to shed up to 7kg and yet still maintain their power output. Obviously, it takes time to develop tests for these but it needs to be agreed that retrospective testing can secure sanctions.

 

[D-Queued]

Nicole Cooke reacts in an interesting and critical piece:

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/mar/11/circ-report-anti-doping-cycling-nicole-cooke

Excerpts:

She's awesome!!

Where is her male counterpart??

..."When I retired two years ago, I condemned the futile efforts of the anti‑doping programmes present throughout my 10 years in the sport as being fought by the wrong people, with the wrong tools in the wrong way. It gives me no pleasure to see CIRC record that riders were paying the anti-doping officers an "anti-doping tax" to avoid testing or positive results to overcome out-of-competition testing.

There is much to admire in the CIRC report. Its terms of reference were never designed to flush out hitherto unknown dopers but it does score highly in its forensic analysis of cycling?s governance. In this it is scathing.

It is obvious that the leadership of the UCI did not always execute its responsibilities competently; so the spotlight falls on the past presidents Hein Verbruggen and Pat McQuaid. Both saved their most vigorous efforts for the pursuit of people they believed had "defamed the UCI and its presidents"." ...

Dave.

 

[pmcg76]

How does Cooke fit into the oft heard refrain in the Clinic that it is not possible to win clean. She was right at the top on the womens side of the sport(Top 3) and was undoubtedly beating lots of dopers.

 

[mrhender]

How does Cooke fit into the oft heard refrain in the Clinic that it is not possible to win clean. She was right at the top on the womens side of the sport(Top 3) and was undoubtedly beating lots of dopers.

Even so -a former dopers point's can have merit no?

I have no idea if she doped but that is not the issue or thread topic here..

 

[Netserk]

How does Cooke fit into the oft heard refrain in the Clinic that it is not possible to win clean. She was right at the top on the womens side of the sport(Top 3) and was undoubtedly beating lots of dopers.

By far the majority of the clinic thinks that it is possible to win clean.

 

[DirtyWorks]

She's awesome!!

Where is her male counterpart??

Exactly. Exactly the tone the required, exactly the right message focused on protecting the integrity of the sport.

Imagine that, someone else that alleges 'never tested positive' is for sale at the UCI.... Allegedly. Crackpots and conspiracy theorists are everywhere!!!

 

[JimmyFingers]

Nicole is so fierce, so admirable, amazingly powerful piece, very provocative and should make a few choke on their cornflakes. Clearly a doper though

 

[pmcg76]

By far the majority of the clinic thinks that it is possible to win clean.

Netserk you are on record as saying it is not possible to win a GT/Classic or Top race yet Cooke won every equivilant in womens cycling, Olympcis, Worlds, Tour Feminin, Giro Donne. Cooke was in the Top handful of women in the World, I would argue Top 3, others might feel differently.

Are you saying doping has different effects on women or are you changing your position.

 

[pmcg76]

Even so -a former dopers point's can have merit no?

I have no idea if she doped but that is not the issue or thread topic here..

I think it does because she would be one massive hypocrite if she had doped. How would that make her any better than the likes of JV, Millar, Kittel and all the others who are so frequently criticised for hypocrisy.

 

[mrhender]

I think it does because she would be one massive hypocrite if she had doped. How would that make her any better than the likes of JV, Millar, Kittel and all the others who are so frequently criticised for hypocrisy.

Fair enough -but even so (being a hypocrite) her points could have merit?

I'am all for scrutinizing anyone, but are you suggesting we should discredit all points where we can not establish a perfect history?

To me the important part (in this case) is not if she doped (heck she might even now a lot better if did) -but to put forth interesting views on the sport and it's administration as it is today...

It seems we often end up discussing the cleanliness and moral legitimacy of the source to an opinion rather then the actual content.

Does that make us better off?

 

[Netserk]

Netserk you are on record as saying it is not possible to win a GT/Classic or Top race yet Cooke won every equivilant in womens cycling, Olympcis, Worlds, Tour Feminin, Giro Donne. Cooke was in the Top handful of women in the World, I would argue Top 3, others might feel differently.

Are you saying doping has different effects on women or are you changing your position.

I am saying women's cycling is in no way comparable to men's. It's a completely different level. How many women can live solely on their income from cycling?



I also noted how you moved the goalposts. Not possible to win clean =/= Not possible to win GTs clean. I guess you won't even admit that your claim that "the oft heard refrain in the Clinic that it is not possible to win clean" was a strawman.

 

[pmcg76]

I am saying women's cycling is in no way comparable to men's. It's a completely different level. How many women can live solely on their income from cycling?



I also noted how you moved the goalposts. Not possible to win clean =/= Not possible to win GTs clean. I guess you won't even admit that your claim that "the oft heard refrain in the Clinic that it is not possible to win clean" was a strawman.

I am not moving any goalposts. Not possible to win clean is an oft heard refrain in the clinic whether you think the majority disagree or not(Do you have stats for that?). Right after that sentence, I said Cooke was right at the top of womens cycling inferring that she was winning at the top clean which is something that is not widely believed around here.

Also please explain futher how a clean women can beat all the other top women in the world, some of whom were on EPO. What is the difference between men and women when it comes to EPO doping?

If Top female cyclist X is doping with EPO but Top women Y can beat her clean, how does whether they make a living from it or not effect this.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

As an example we have David Millar:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...cognise-this-almost-tabloidesque-account.html

My first feeling on finishing reading the CIRC report was one of disappointment. I didn't speak to CIRC. They invited me. Only they forgot I was then an active professional cyclist who spends most of his time on the road and has a wife and two baby boys at home. I never found time to travel to them and they never once mentioned coming to me. I regret not making the time after reading the report.

Joe Papp testified via Skype, Dave.

Just sayin'.

 

[D-Queued]

Joe Papp testified via Skype, Dave.

Just sayin'.

Good one.

Dave (not the same one referred to in Dear Wiggo's post).

 

[Archibald]

how does whether they make a living from it or not effect this.

affordability - there's stuff all money in women's cycling to afford "high octane" doping products...
EPO's around $2,000 a pop from what a pharmacist wife of a mate told me. So not exactly something a part-time pro rider can afford.

Anyway, I think Cooke's comments are well valid - as hender pointed out; we need to look at what's said, not necessarily who's said it...

 

[ralphbert]

Also please explain futher how a clean women can beat all the other top women in the world, some of whom were on EPO. What is the difference between men and women when it comes to EPO doping?

One thing to consider is because there a great many less competitors the gene pool is much smaller and the genetic spread is much wider. Therefore some of the a "genetically inferior" can boost but only reach the level of the clean super freaks.

This is less likely in the men's because they are all in the top 5% just to be there.

 

[sniper]

I think it does because she would be one massive hypocrite if she had doped. How would that make her any better than the likes of JV, Millar, Kittel and all the others who are so frequently criticised for hypocrisy.

Millar and JV are trying to hide the bodies, selling lies about clean(ER) cycling.
Cooke's message is (much) more skeptical, which imo is the only credible way to go if you're really anti-doping.
That said, yes, she may have been a doper. In the current professional landscape, there's no certainty in that regard.

 

[joe_papp]

Re:

how does whether they make a living from it or not effect this.

affordability - there's stuff all money in women's cycling to afford "high octane" doping products...
EPO's around $2,000 a pop from what a pharmacist wife of a mate told me...

Errrr, just want to clarify that this is not an accurate figure at all.

I just looked back at some of my records from 2006-7, and the following is a direct quote from one of our winter specials:

january 300k offer

For [REDACTED] only, we have this smashing good offer:
300,000iu EPOSINO rh-EPO = $1700
(5x60,000iu [10x6,000iu pre-filled syringes])

This quantity should be enough for one athlete's personal use for several seasons.

Shipping and handling, and delivery insurance included. Guaranteed delivery to USA, UK and some Canadian provinces.

Even "name brand" non-generic EPO produced by big pharma in USA, for example, isn't anywhere near $2000 a "pop" (by which I assume you're referring to a standard presentation of 2000 or 4000iu vials, enough for a month's worth of treatment).

EPO is very affordable now. What's not affordable, however, is expert advice on usage, including avoiding detection, provided by a trained but corrupt medical professional...

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

Errrr, just want to clarify that this is not an accurate figure at all.

I just looked back at some of my records from 2006-7, and the following is a direct quote from one of our winter specials:

...

This quantity should be enough for one athlete's personal use for several seasons.

...

Even "name brand" non-generic EPO produced by big pharma in USA, for example, isn't anywhere near $2000 a "pop" (by which I assume you're referring to a standard presentation of 2000 or 4000iu vials, enough for a month's worth of treatment).

EPO is very affordable now. What's not affordable, however, is expert advice on usage, including avoiding detection, provided by a trained but corrupt medical professional...

Thanks. Thought it was more affordable than $2k/pop, which would put it up there with some of the designer stuff for exotic diseases.

But, what caught my attention as the "several seasons" supply.

Once a distribution channel like yours is shut down, there are still years worth of supply out there that the rest of us need to contend with.

Not very comforting.

Dave.