Research on Belief in God

[rhubroma]

I think there is indeed a common misunderstanding here. The word faith is English seems to have different meanings. Somehow in discussions concerning religion people seem to have to idea that faith means something like "to believe a certain proposition to be true, despite the fact that there is no rational reason to believe it to be true." In fact, I think there are very few religious believers for whom the word 'faith' has this connotation and I think it's hardly used like that outside of religious discussions. When you say something like "I have faith in that person" it doesn't mean you believe that this person exists without having any rational reason to believe that. It means you trust him. So similarly I think when a religious believer says "I have faith in God", it shouldn't be taken, in most instances, to be that he believes that God exists despite the fact that he has no rational reason for believing such, but rather that he trusts God.

Of course, having faith in somebody may or may not be supported by any rational reasons to have this faith. So it seems to me that having faith in someone and having rational reasons for believing certain propositions are two quite separate things. You might have faith in someone and also have a good rational justification for believing that this person exists, without your faith and your reason somehow being at odds. They might very well be complementary, rather than at odds.

It might be relevant to note that the original Greek word for 'faith' or 'believing' or however it's translated is actually also related to trust. The noun πίστις is commonly translated as 'faith' in the Bible, but it can also refer to someones faithfulness/fidelity/trustworthiness. So, you see, the original Biblical concept of faith at least doesn't really carry the connotation that '(blind) faith' might have in the English language. And I think for most believers the English word 'faith' doesn't really have such a connotation either; it certainly doesn't for me.

So what you are saying is that faith has nothing to do with demonstrable fact. Thanks for clearing that one up for us.

PS. And I don't even have 'facts' to demonstrate, thank goodness, nor undemostrable facts to live by, or impose. On the other hand each must decide unto himself, given the available evidence, for which undemonstrable facts throttled as truth can hardly be stomached.

 

[Maaaaaaaarten]

So what you are saying is that faith has nothing to do with demonstrable fact. Thanks for clearing that up for us.

PS. And I don't even have 'facts' to demonstrate, thank goodness, nor undemostrable facts to live by, or impose.

Well, if you don't like facts, suit it yourself, I like facts.

Furthermore, I suggested that when one says he has faith in something, he doesn't first and foremost mean the object of his faith is a demonstrable fact. Nor does he mean that the object of his faith is something that cannot be demonstrated. Unfortunately the word faith does seem to be taken in the latter sense sometimes, as if the object of faith has to necessarily be an indemonstrable fact or otherwise it wouldn't faith. In fact it's just that notion that I'm disagreeing with.

I'm suggesting that the sentence "I have faith in God" has as much to do with demonstrable facts as sentences "I have faith in my wife" or "I have faith in the justice system" or "I have faith in the government" or "I have faith in the Belgian people" and so forth. (These examples are hypothetical of course. In fact I have little or no faith in all of those things except God)

 

[rhubroma]

Well, if you don't like facts, suit it yourself, I like facts.

Furthermore, I suggested that when one says he has faith in something, he doesn't first and foremost mean the object of his faith is a demonstrable fact. Nor does he mean that the object of his faith is something that cannot be demonstrated. Unfortunately the word faith does seem to be taken in the latter sense sometimes, as if the object of faith has to necessarily be an indemonstrable fact or otherwise it wouldn't faith. In fact it's just that notion that I'm disagreeing with.

I'm suggesting that the sentence "I have faith in God" has as much to do with demonstrable facts as sentences "I have faith in my wife" or "I have faith in the justice system" or "I have faith in the government" or "I have faith in the Belgian people" and so forth. (These examples are hypothetical of course. In fact I have little or no faith in all of those things except God)

Sorry, it is wishful thinking. Of course there is nothing wrong with that per se, everyone needs a pick-me-up now and then, but the whole 'truth' thing of the religious can't be taken seriously. Apropos, would you really have faith in the Belgians (thus your footnote)?

 

[sittingbison]

Yes, I'm clearly violent. As a matter of fact, I just finished my daily spree of murders. Was checking google maps for nearest disposal site and decided to peek into CN. I think I'm hearing sirens, got to go.

BigMac, when you have avoided the fuzz can you please empty your inbox, several people would like to PM you

cheers
bison

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, I'm clearly violent. As a matter of fact, I just finished my daily spree of murders. Was checking google maps for nearest disposal site and decided to peek into CN. I think I'm hearing sirens, got to go.

If this actually happened you would probably win back echoes respect.

Considering the high praise he has for Putin, Assad, Saddam etc.

 

[ray j willings]

Atheists on this forum, with rare exceptions, must be the most arrogant and narrow-minded people on this planet. Worst thing is that they are also cycling fans, a sport for conservatives, normally. But in the end I guess with such fans, cycling probably deserves this current lack of popularity.


I love you Echoes

I know since you called me an abortion that you don't respond to my comments but your insane hypocrisy and almost insane views calls me to urge the world leaders to make atheism compulsory.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

If this actually happened you would probably win back echoes respect.

Considering the high praise he has for Putin, Assad, Saddam etc.

It is amazing the comments coming from that direction. Just when you think it is at a max some more amazing posts.

The comment quoted by RJW with respect to cycling fans being a sport for conservatives was a bit perplexing to me (just my opinion).

 

[ray j willings]

It is amazing the comments coming from that direction. Just when you think it is at a max some more amazing posts.

The comment quoted by RJW with respect to cycling fans being a sport for conservatives was a bit perplexing to me (just my opinion).

It was not my quote, it was Echoes, I was responding to the quote.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

It was not my quote, it was Echoes, I was responding to the quote.

Yes I understand that. I was noteing that you quoted it and replied to it. I was saying the original post by echo was the part that had me

 

[ray j willings]

I actually worked with a guy who said his wife and himself did not believe that dinosaurs ever existed. I was stunned.

If yall don't watch the ancient alien series on the History channel then your missing out. Good stuff.

I asked before about the god believers view on ET.

Dr Steven Greers "Disclosure Project " was supposed to confirm to the world that ET exists. It is compelling evidence. Amazing witness's.
Over 250 tv and press turned up and then decided to ignore it.
check it out ,,,,,,,,,,,,we are not alone

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

 

[ray j willings]

Yes I understand that. I was noteing that you quoted it and replied to it. I was saying the original post by echo was the part that had me

See what happens if you quote echoes ,,,,chaos ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

 

[RetroActive]

I asked before about the god believers view on ET.

Dr Steven Greers "Disclosure Project " was supposed to confirm to the world that ET exists. It is compelling evidence. Amazing witness's.
Over 250 tv and press turned up and then decided to ignore it.
check it out ,,,,,,,,,,,,we are not alone

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

Maybe it would be useful to begin to understand how these folks were thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSKzpOj-VVU

If you want the earliest known start, begin at the beginning. Gobekli Tepe --->Arrata kingdom and Sumeria ---> along with the Indus valley. What happened prior to the end of the last ice age is likely underwater.

No need for aliens; just observation, insight, imagination, intuition and experimentation...and thousands of years.

Farming was/is a double edged sword, there are great benefits and great risks. Understanding the environment, looking for signs and patterns to try to predict the rhythms of nature to ensure the best yields would have been second nature. We're still trying to make the world more predictable, uniform, and standardized to this day. It makes us feel secure to know (or pretend to).

 

[ray j willings]

Maybe it would be useful to begin to understand how these folks were thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSKzpOj-VVU

If you want the earliest known start, begin at the beginning. Gobekli Tepe --->Arrata kingdom and Sumeria ---> along with the Indus valley. What happened prior to the end of the last ice age is likely underwater.

No need for aliens; just observation, insight, imagination, intuition and experimentation...and thousands of years.

Farming was/is a double edged sword, there are great benefits and great risks. Understanding the environment, looking for signs and patterns to try to predict the rhythms of nature to ensure the best yields would have been
second nature. We're still trying to make the world more predictable, uniform, and standardized to this day. It makes us feel secure to know (or pretend to).

Adrian Gilbert has wrote some very interesting books

Signs in the Sky , Orion mysteries etc .
Definitely worth a read.

 

[RetroActive]

Adrian Gilbert has wrote some very interesting books

Signs in the Sky , Orion mysteries etc .
Definitely worth a read.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwgmzbnckII

Sirius is interesting too, in particular Sirius B.

 

[rhubroma]

Maybe it would be useful to begin to understand how these folks were thinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSKzpOj-VVU

If you want the earliest known start, begin at the beginning. Gobekli Tepe --->Arrata kingdom and Sumeria ---> along with the Indus valley. What happened prior to the end of the last ice age is likely underwater.

No need for aliens; just observation, insight, imagination, intuition and experimentation...and thousands of years.

Farming was/is a double edged sword, there are great benefits and great risks. Understanding the environment, looking for signs and patterns to try to predict the rhythms of nature to ensure the best yields would have been second nature. We're still trying to make the world more predictable, uniform, and standardized to this day. It makes us feel secure to know (or pretend to).

He's more interesting when he sticks to his field. Certain leaps are not well based. 25 December, as liturgical holiday, for example, is not a particular astrological moment (in the millennial historical sense), but the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti.

 

[RetroActive]

He's more interesting when he sticks to his field. Certain leaps are not well based. 25 December, as liturgical holiday, for example, is not a particular astrological moment (in the millennial historical sense), but the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti.

Who is more interesting? There's a certain amount of quackery in those sorts of videos but on the whole they're pointing in a more interesting direction than the boring standard Egytologists.

Yes Dec. 25th is the rebirth of the sun, which was equated with the heart, or the heart chakra, or more specifically the thymus gland. Each of the seven major glands in the body were equated with the seven wanderers in the heavens blah, blah, blah (Jacob's ladder - it's a psychological thing). There were 9 neters in ancient Egypt and there are 9 basic parts to the brain etc, etc, etc. The pineal gland is the holiest of holies yada, yada.

Clearly these people weren't stupid as they encoded a hell of a lot of math in the great pyramid alone. Modern knowledge and techniques would struggle to replicate the precision. We don't like to acknowledge it though as we're the smartest people that have ever existed.

Meanwhile these people were steeped in their own practices and were telling stories mouth to ear, the dummies were idolaters that took them literally. Those with some insight asked better questions and got better answers, or so the story goes.

 

[RetroActive]

We're so used to having our information given to us in an explicit linear string of rational fact filled techno. jargon that it's hard to read poetry. The problem is it never gets a person off the binary ground and reality is only outside ourselves, the objective world. The ladder is a spine, there are 33 bones in the human spine and Jesus died and was reborn at 33.

You'll notice the only one reading a book is sitting at the bottom.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

12th of July 2007 proved that there either is no god, or that he is one ******* of such a magnitude that you cannot help but be in awe of his stupid face. Case closed

 

[rhubroma]

Who is more interesting? There's a certain amount of quackery in those sorts of videos but on the whole they're pointing in a more interesting direction than the boring standard Egytologists.

Yes Dec. 25th is the rebirth of the sun, which was equated with the heart, or the heart chakra, or more specifically the thymus gland. Each of the seven major glands in the body were equated with the seven wanderers in the heavens blah, blah, blah (Jacob's ladder - it's a psychological thing). There were 9 neters in ancient Egypt and there are 9 basic parts to the brain etc, etc, etc. The pineal gland is the holiest of holies yada, yada.

Clearly these people weren't stupid as they encoded a hell of a lot of math in the great pyramid alone. Modern knowledge and techniques would struggle to replicate the precision. We don't like to acknowledge it though as we're the smartest people that have ever existed.

Meanwhile these people were steeped in their own practices and were telling stories mouth to ear, the dummies were idolaters that took them literally. Those with some insight asked better questions and got better answers, or so the story goes.

Looking at the commentary, he could have arrived at aliens instructing the Egyptians on cosmology and folks would have taken it seriously.

Plato, who voyaged to Egypt and learned all the wisdom of the Egyptian astronomers (like Moses), thought that the stars were fractions of the universe soul and as such, were gods. Plato also argued for the existence of demons, or angelic beings that acted as intermediaries between the divine cosmic forces and humanity, which Augustine, because of his Christiancentric concept of religion, condemned as demonic forces. The Neoplatonists and astrologers believed the sidereal bodies to have power over humans and to influence history, for which magic of the vertical kind could harness those powers and bring them to earth for one's benefit. In fact the magus and the priest were one and the same.

Hermes Trismegistus, author of the Corpus Hermeticum, which was not written in the time of the ancient Egyptians, but during the Neoplatonic era and undoubtedly by a series of authors only purporting to be an Egyptian priest of great antiquity; wrote about astrology and magic in light of gnostic hopes for salvation. Marsilio Ficino, because he believed erroneously that the Thrice Great Hermes was as old as Moses (indeed on one occasion even harbored a serious suspicion that he was Moses), concluded that his was the font of the Divine Mens that through Plato was transmitted to the prisci theologi, through which the revival of pagan poetry as theological allegory has received its legitimacy. The philosophia pia of Ficino thus beleived to be led by no less than part of the source of the light and wisdom of God, which divided society into two camps: the simple minded and the initiated. At any rate the allegorical veil of ancient myth did not, in any way, remove the eternal symbol, word, or measure of the vital source: 'factum est ut pia quaedam philosophia quondam et apud Persas sub Zoroastre, et apud Aegyptios sub Mercurio nasceretur, utrobique sibimet consona, nutriretur deinde apud Traces sub Orpheo atque Aglaophemo, adolesceret quoque mox sub Pythagora apud Graecos et Italos, tandem vero a dico Platone consummaretur Athenis."

It is important to remember that such claims depart from an asumption that the heavenly bodies are not immense spheres of gas or rock, but divinities, created by the demiurge that, in turn, was created by the All-One. While this may be more poetical and certainly no less intellectual than scientific cosmic theory and the Big Bang, it is no more useful to explaining the universe than is Genesis.

It is true that modern Egyptologists and Classicists elide the hermetic character of their subjects, guided by the exact sciences and rationalism to the point of not approaching these civilizations upon their terms - which means the Renaissance humanist may have been better equipped to "approach" antiquity than modern academics - however, Egyptian mystery cults and Platonic cosmology are simply more attractive myths to explain the unintelligible, but can hardly be considered paths to higher knowledge, which, after all, only exists in men?s imaginations.

 

[RetroActive]

Looking at the commentary, he could have arrived at aliens instructing the Egyptians on cosmology and folks would have taken it seriously.

Plato, who voyaged to Egypt and learned all the wisdom of the Egyptian astronomers (like Moses), thought that the stars were fractions of the universe soul and as such, were gods. Plato also argued for the existence of demons, or angelic beings that acted as intermediaries between the divine cosmic forces and humanity, which Augustine, because of his Christiancentric concept of religion, condemned as demonic forces. The Neoplatonists and astrologers believed the sidereal bodies to have power over humans and to influence history, for which magic of the vertical kind could harness those powers and bring them to earth for one's benefit. In fact the magus and the priest were one and the same.

Hermes Trismegistus, author of the Corpus Hermeticum, which was not written in the time of the ancient Egyptians, but during the Neoplatonic era and undoubtedly by a series of authors only purporting to be an Egyptian priest of great antiquity; wrote about astrology and magic in light of gnostic hopes for salvation. Marsilio Ficino, because he believed erroneously that the Thrice Great Hermes was as old as Moses (indeed on one occasion even harbored a serious suspicion that he was Moses), concluded that his was the font of the Divine Mens that through Plato was transmitted to the prisci theologi, through which the revival of pagan poetry as theological allegory has received its legitimacy. The philosophia pia of Ficino thus beleived to be led by no less than part of the source of the light and wisdom of God, which divided society into two camps: the simple minded and the initiated. At any rate the allegorical veil of ancient myth did not, in any way, remove the eternal symbol, word, or measure of the vital source: 'factum est ut pia quaedam philosophia quondam et apud Persas sub Zoroastre, et apud Aegyptios sub Mercurio nasceretur, utrobique sibimet consona, nutriretur deinde apud Traces sub Orpheo atque Aglaophemo, adolesceret quoque mox sub Pythagora apud Graecos et Italos, tandem vero a dico Platone consummaretur Athenis."

It is important to remember that such claims depart from an asumption that the heavenly bodies are not immense spheres of gas or rock, but divinities, created by the demiurge that, in turn, was created by the All-One. While this may be more poetical and certainly no less intellectual than scientific cosmic theory and the Big Bang, it is no more useful to explaining the universe than is Genesis.

It is true that modern Egyptologists and Classicists elide the hermetic character of their subjects, guided by the exact sciences and rationalism to the point of not approaching these civilizations upon their terms - which means the Renaissance humanist may have been better equipped to "approach" antiquity than modern academics - however, Egyptian mystery cults and Platonic cosmology are simply more attractive myths to explain the unintelligible, but can hardly be considered paths to higher knowledge, which, after all, only exists in men?s imaginations.

Apparently meditation and imagination are paths to higher knowledge, there are great big monuments built in stone along the Nile (among other places) that attest to this. Clearly Archimedes wasn't this first to have a Eureka! moment, Tesla had a few too.

The Egyptians found inspiration in this for 3000 + yrs, as did every other civilization.

Talking to an old Uni. Prof. that's also a freemason, he says to me "most people lose that (imagination) by about age 30". Maybe he's right, if you want to live in a world that has nothing but rigid patterns (habits), however rational, that's up to you. I prefer to use reason to to create what I imagine. I'm not trying to pin life down though, like a set of static rules, I'm just playing around with maybe.

To each their own, your life - your exploration.

edit - just do the paint by numbers, you'll be marked by how well you stay in the lines. **** that, I'm painting my own picture - give me 0 I don't give a ****. I'm still using paint, brush and paper though, reasonable enough? Maybe I'll put three or four pages together to make a bigger picture and paint with a toothbrush, or a spoon - now I'm getting unreasonable though. The teacher won't like that at all. hahaha

 

[Ruby United]

This is an interesting debate addressing numerous contradictions and mistakes in the New Testament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbOCKdSIR8

 

[ray j willings]

This is an interesting debate addressing numerous contradictions and mistakes in the New Testament

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDbOCKdSIR8

New testament ,old testament. Quran , Horrid Henry robs the bank,,,,errr actually horrid Henry robs the bank is pretty good and more believable

 

[ray j willings]

Check this out and then tell me you still believe in god Facts can prove anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

 

[Jspear]

Check this out and then tell me you still believe in god Facts can prove anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

Just looking at it briefly I'm already seeing one problem. It's talking about the sun and how man has often worshiped it, then at one point it brings in the SON of God. Again didn't watch a ton of it: hopefully they do notice a difference between the words sun and son. Also, the cross in and of itself isn't a holy thing (maybe it is for catholics...not sure, don't really care ). Jesus was put to death by pagans using, brutal, evil methods. If the cross in antiquity had some sort of pagan meaning, that doesn't negate what Christ accomplished on the cross. Jesus death on the cross was suppose to be shameful. Hence the verse " Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE ""

 

[Jspear]

Check this out and then tell me you still believe in god Facts can prove anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

Here is why Moses was upset with Israel for making a golden calf.
Israel were the chosen people of God.

3 Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob and tell the sons of Israel:
4 'You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings, and brought you to Myself.
5 'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;
6 and you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words that you shall speak to the sons of Israel."
7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him.
8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. Exo 19:3-8

So they were to have no other gods beside the LORD God Himself.
In chapter 32 of Exodus when the people saw that Moses delayed (he was on Mount Sinai receiving instructions from God) they said to Aaron, Moses brother, "make us gods, which will go before us." They were doing the very thing God had told them not to. This had nothing to do with Moses being upset that they were worshiping a bull over, lets say a ram. Regardless of what they were worshiping Moses would have had the same reaction. In verse 26 he said, " Who is on the Lord's side, let him come onto me." Verse 29, " consecrate yourselves today to the Lord. Verse 31, "oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold."

So you see this had nothing to do with bull vs rams, but rather with them worshiping an inanimate object over the one true living God.