Riccò hospitalized for possible kidney ailment

[Alpe d'Huez]

Wow. Just paid my first visit to the clinic forum... but perhaps I shouldn't have been so naive.

Trial by fire. It's sort of like soldiers first getting to war. Those cannons you've been hearing in the distance? That's where this trench is dug, where we reside. If you can handle the explosions, it's quite eye opening.

I don't understand this logic at all. The practice of blood doping was never considered "fine"....

I believe what's happening is that people interpreted the way the rules were written at the time to mean that no specifics to blood doping could be found, thus it was "fine". When of course you are correct, it's never been "fine".

 

[M Sport]

Riccò got so scared that he actually told the doctors what he had done so they could have a fair shot at saving his life. At least for a few minutes he must have realized that his life is more important than winning races. I hope he still thinks so.

And then the doctors sing like a canary to the police? Must have some odd laws in that country.

I hope he makes a full recovery, not really a fan of his but I can't help but think he's just been a pawn in the grand scheme of things from a very young age.

 

[Martin318is]

Barrus made a few posts earlier in this thread warning about not discussion Armstrong as that is Off topic.

Please consider this an extension to include all other riders with the exception of his girlfriend. Evans, Wigans, etc, etc, have nothing to do with the topic of Ricco being Hospitalised or likely being found out to have doped again.

Discuss them elsewhere.

 

[orbis_25]

I don't understand this logic at all. The practice of blood doping was never considered "fine". The practice wasn't widespread when Moser used it to attack the hour record, at least not in the cycling world up until then. And Sassi was the one administering this procedure. He was one of the godfathers of this crap, so to give him the benefit of the doubt when Ricco, a rider he was working with right until he died, winds up in the hospital for a botched transfusion it just doesn't cut it.

Ah, this is a disagreement stemming from definition. As Alpe d'Huez so wonderfully clarified, when I claimed blood transfusions used to be "fine," I meant they were legal. As in they were not explicitly outlawed. I certainly didn't mean that blood transfusions were fine from a health standpoint. This whole sad episode is demonstrating that when used in an unauthorised setting, blood transfusions are most certainly not safe.

I hope Riccò recovers completely from this.

 

[MarkvW]

I don't understand this logic at all. The practice of blood doping was never considered "fine". The practice wasn't widespread when Moser used it to attack the hour record, at least not in the cycling world up until then. And Sassi was the one administering this procedure. He was one of the godfathers of this crap, so to give him the benefit of the doubt when Ricco, a rider he was working with right until he died, winds up in the hospital for a botched transfusion it just doesn't cut it.

I would like to know who pioneered this method of cheating in the world of sports, when it became common in pro cycling, when was it banned and why. Maybe a little history can help us get to the bottom of this.

In '72 Lasse Viren wasn't cheating when he was blood doping. In '76 he was.

 

[Boardslide]

I'm shocked that Cavendish has not tweeted about this incident yet.

Cav doesn't have and never has had a twitter account & it's been a long standing joke within the team that he isn't allowed one for fear of putting foot in mouth. However there is a Fake Cav who posts occasionally.

 

[skidmark]

I hope so!

I do try and view the evidence objectively but without a vast amount of knowledge of behind the scenes in cycling and the massive criticism of UCI, WADA etc etc it all becomes quite clouded!

One thing I learned quite quickly as an English speaking fan not versed in cycling culture for years is that my own perception was skewed, vis a vis riders that spoke the same language as me. Because, through sites like this, I had more access to English-speaking riders speaking about doping, I kind of had this underlying notion that certain ones of them were clean. I was rudely awoken by reading things here and applying common sense to realize that lying and obfuscating doping culture spans cultures and languages. Like Hitch said, you have to look at the evidence. I'd love to be able to take it for granted that a rider from my country (or just that I'm a fan of) is anti-doping, and that it's more 'in the culture' of Spanish or Italian bike racing, and in some facets you might be able to argue that it's true, in terms of the fact that bike racing is bigger there and maybe has a more developed system of doping. But the big conclusion that I've drawn is that any difference is negligible compared to the common culture of doping across all of cycling.

Sure the cynicism of the clinic can get you down. But just remember that athletes aren't heroes in any sport, and lots of them are probably jerks. And lots of dopers are nice guys as well as jerks. It's just part of sport and high-level competition - hopefully a part that can be dealt with in a better way than it has been - but part of it nonetheless.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

In '72 Lasse Viren wasn't cheating when he was blood doping. In '76 he was.

Actually, there is zero proof that Viren blood doped. Teammate Kaarlo Maaninka did, and admitted it. But nothing from Viren. Just a lot of speculation. Viren says it's from a poor interpretation of words at the Olympics, and confusion in the masses between he and Maaninka.

Furthermore, blood doping was not "specifically against the rules" as far into the future as 1984, when some members of the US cycling team on the track blood doped. The technique specifically banned in 1986.

The question then becomes whether one believes it is, or was unethical, or cheating, regardless of the wording of the rules.

Going back again to 1976 Frank Shorter was a heavy favorite at the Olympic marathon, and Viren a favorite to follow him onto the medal stand, but out of nowhere came East German Waldemar Cierpinski, who was virtually unknown at the time to win. At the time it was suggested the Cierpinski (and many others of the DDR) had been blood doping. And Shorter later contended Cierpinski benefited from the DDR's doping machine, including blood doping, and tried to get him to admit it, but Cierpinski has forever remained silent.

 

[Anonymous]

Ricco is a megalomaniacal psycho who refers to himself in the third person.

You say that like its a bad thing...

Thoughtforfood doesn't have a problem with a real man who is willing to shine his light of superiority on the world.

 

[orbis_25]

Orbis_25 thinks that anyone, be it man, beast, or flamingo mermaid from the depths of Ursula 62 (a galaxy he just invented), should not just restrict shining his/her/its light of superiority on this world. He thinks everyone in the universe deserves to be bathed in the light of "truth."

 

[nowhereman]

Oh, get over yourself. His kind is a blight to the sport of cycling? Really? He's a young guy who has no clue how to do anything else, has a kid, and needs to support a family. He knows everyone else is doping, so he does what he feels he needs to do to put food on the table. He's doping. He's not going out robbing banks or knocking over convenience stores. Get some perspective here.

If the scumbags in charge of the sport were actually serious about doing something, this kind of thing would not exist. I'm not saying doping isn't bad or that it isn't cheating. Sure, it's reprehensible behavior and he should get banned for this. But telling someone to go away and kill themselves away from the sport is just stupid and shows a staggering lack of humanity or even basic understanding of the sport.

Don't try to pronounce what I know, or don't know, you know nothing about ME, nothing. You ought to show some restraint yourself. Frankly, I don't give a damn what you think. Ricco is one of the most arrogant loud mouthed riders that WAS in the peloton. If you want to feel sorry for him, good for you, I hope you go to heaven for it. And, as far as him being a felon, well maybe the Italian police are going to have the final say on that matter. I've got plenty of perspective here. Zero tolerance. He's a loudmouth with nothing to back it up, but bags of blood. Bags of blood he almost killed himself with. Sorry but I don't feel sympathy for idiots that are as self destructive as he is!

 

[soslow]

Why dope now?

So how long does blood doping have an effect? I thought it was maybe a few days. When was Ricco's next scheduled race? If it isn't for a while, what would he be the purpose of blood doping now? Certainly not so he could drop his winter training partners. Wonder if he was working out the bugs to beat the passport system or something.

 

[pedaling squares]

...I don't feel sympathy for idiots that are as self destructive as he is!

I do. I see Ricco as a brash, foolish young man who cheated to support his career, his ego, and his family. I don't know his background but I wonder whether he had many other options that would have secured financial success. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. If it is true about the self-administered transfusion, this only shows us how important it is to join a team with a safe, sophisticated doping program or use the services of an independent expert. Neither option was likely available to Ricco at this low point of his career.

I agree with those who have suggested Ricco will be labeled as a rotten apple in a clean, fresh barrel of fruit. Kick 'em while they're down and hope to God the truth doesn't get out.

The riders who tweeted their contempt while he's still lying in a hospital bed are douchebags. There is a time and a place to show some humanity. And if you want to speak out, don't stop with Ricco. Man up and sling your arrows at the other guys just like him.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I do. I see Ricco as a brash, foolish young man who cheated to support his career, his ego, and his family. I don't know his background but I wonder whether he had many other options that would have secured financial success. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. If it is true about the self-administered transfusion, this only shows us how important it is to join a team with a safe, sophisticated doping program or use the services of an independent expert. Neither option was likely available to Ricco at this low point of his career.

I agree with those who have suggested Ricco will be labeled as a rotten apple in a clean, fresh barrel of fruit. Kick 'em while they're down and hope to God the truth doesn't get out.

The riders who tweeted their contempt while he's still lying in a hospital bed are douchebags. There is a time and a place to show some humanity. And if you want to speak out, don't stop with Ricco. Man up and sling your arrows at the other guys just like him.

It might just be easier to kick yourself in the ass than it is to sling an arrow at yourself.
At least that's what Hugh thinks.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Alpe agrees with Hugh on Squares last line there.

My understanding is that Ricco didn't have the best family upbringing. Probably no surprise there.

 

[Escarabajo]

Most of what you're talking about refers back six or seven years. Things have changed. I think it was Brian Holm who said that the rumours used to be about who was clean, now they're about who is doping.

I think the days when riders for opposing teams would discuss doping with each other (as Landis claimed) are a few years in the past.

Why should I believe you? Do you race? Do you know a lot of people inside? please tell us.

On the other hand all I read on the headlines is "BUSTED for D..." in other words "Evidence" is the name of the game.

 

[Merckx index]

Sorry but I don't feel sympathy for idiots that are as self destructive as he is!

The problem with your take is there is zero evidence that Ricco got into this situation by doing anything not done and continuing to be done by a great many other riders. IOW, it appears that Ricco was probably more unlucky than idiotic. (Or if you prefer, most everyone in the peloton is a self-destructive idiot, but have been lucky enough not to have been destroyed yet).

Any pro rider who doesn't look at Ricco and say, there but for the grace of God go I, is either immensely hypocritical, or most likely has very few palmares to speak of.

 

[luckyboy]

A little point from what Luijckx said - "If we get something fixed, it's over for Riccò. A rider like him, who has previously been suspended, he knows that the next mistake [means a] lifetime suspension"

He gets a lifetime ban, but Di Luca didn't? And in addition to Di Luca's pitiful ban for the Santuccione case and the ban he's just coming from (1.5 years~), there was the Worlds 07 and his low hormone values during the Giro that year.

Someone's gonna have to explain the ins and outs of this.

edit: wow, didn't know that Riccò named Santuccione as his supplier.

 

[rhubroma]

Well the Italian dailies are reporting in unison the story as if it were factual, though Ricco' himself hasn't yet spoken publicly.

It seems that his case is linked to the breakdown of red blood cells due to poor conservation of the blood in his refrigerator!, which causes hemoglobin along with other substances to leak into the fluid. Hemoglobin is highly toxic to the body and hits the kidneys particularly hard, as it coagulates in these organs, blocking urinary function and devastates them.

All this business regarding the "idiotic" behavior of a single athlete is pure nonsense. For this is the common praxis of the professional cyclist and only the foolish or hypocritical would think otherwise. It seems that in the absence of a qualified medic, as would appear to be the Italian from Modena's case (though the operative word here is qualified alla Fuentes, Ferrari, etc., because it seems highly unlikely that Ricco' would have been acting entirely on his own), lead to his "bad luck". Evidently this is what happens to formerly busted riders. They no longer have access to the best blood doctors and have to rely on more "covert" and hence risky practices. Perhaps this makes a better case for legalization, since the health risks here become much worse than those caused by doping itself. But whatever.

In regards to who is most at fault, the system? The rider? Based upon my experiences many riders are not merely tools of the system but willing participants in its illicit practices. And it doesn't matter if they had a "decent upbringing" or not, mainly, but is connected to their personal qualities and characteristics. On average many athletes of talent, perhaps because of talent, are more prone to seeking out the doping methods than those in the general population. In this sense, it's like it comes with the territory. And it is a thoroughly rotten and insidious territory, professional sports, and not merely in cycling. You have guys that have no scruples whatsoever placed within a world of omerta' and immense corruption. What else is there to expect?

 

[Benotti69]

It amazes me that posters believe that doping is still not widespread in some form or other.

The leading prosecutor in Italy said in 2010 it was widespread and nearly all, what was the figure he quoted 99%, were doping?

Dr Fuentes gets busted for the second time!

Contador caught using Clen. for his 3rd TdF win.

Positives in Vuelta

Ricco in hospital, allegedly due to a bad transfusion and confessing to it to the doctors.

Frei explaining the system of micro doping and how stupid he was to get caught due to not drinking enough water.

The liquigas train in the Giro.

the same people are in cycling running teams that were running teams at the height of epo. Bruyneel. Rihs(Phonak BMC) Rabobank, Gianetti, Ochowicz and others are managed by riders who were big dopers Riis etc...

this is to list a few of the recent low points in cycling's doping history.

 

[BroDeal]

So how does doctor-patient confidentiality affect the police investigation? How does it affect a possible UCI doping sanction? If Ricco invokes EU privacy law then what evidence is there?

I find it interesting that Ricco would use transfusions for an early season race. You would think he target the Giro and not take the risk during earlier races. It makes me think that Ricco is stupid as well as careless.

 

[Benotti69]

today's Gazzetta Dello Sport reports

MODENA, February 8, 2011 - The health of Riccardo Ricco improve. But the story is complicated by concerns that the legal point of view and sports. The prosecutor of Modena has opened a file (at the time against the person to be identified) for suspected violations of the anti-doping law 376/2000. The Attorney Pasquale Mazzei placed on record the medical report submitted by the Hospital on Sunday morning Pavullo provided first aid to Riccò, presented himself to the emergency room in critical condition, so as to encourage the transfer of emergency hospital Baggiovara (Modena). According to the testimony of the doctor, the rider from Modena - which was in a state of shock - has reportedly "in the presence of his wife (actually girlfriend Vania Rossi, ed) that they had " done alone un'autotrasfusione of blood retained in the refrigerator at home for 25 days, "fear"for the incorrect storage of blood that was injected again. "

According to the doctor, the rider from Modena was in a state of shock and said "in the presence of his wife have done alone un'autotrasfusione of blood kept in the fridge at home for 25 days. "

the other daily sporting paper is reporting;

http://www.corrieredellosport.it/al...cò+mi+ha+detto+di+aver+fatto+autotrasfusione»

The chief prosecutor of Modena Vito Zincani specified that the hospital Pavullo, where Sunday was initially brought the rider, is providing the results of the first tests on the rider, who had felt ill Saturday after a workout. "Only after they are collected we suggest the breach in relation to Article 9 of the anti-doping law, " he said.

This was confirmed by the prosecutor of Modena Vito Zincani. The rider, while receiving first aid to the emergency room, he also told the doctor that they have taken their blood for about twenty-five days before reinfusion, and fear for the state in which it was stored.

if he is under investigation it's over for Ricco.

 

[whittashau]

It amazes me that posters believe that doping is still not widespread in some form or other.

The liquigas train in the Giro.

Pardon? How is this a example of doping?

 

[Barrus]

So how does doctor-patient confidentiality affect the police investigation? How does it affect a possible UCI doping sanction? If Ricco invokes EU privacy law then what evidence is there?

I find it interesting that Ricco would use transfusions for an early season race. You would think he target the Giro and not take the risk during earlier races. It makes me think that Ricco is stupid as well as careless.

Concerning UCI doping sanction, I don't think it will have that much effect. However I believe that Ricco has quite a case against the public prosecutors if they have really made confidential medical information public. It is possible he could get a reasonable pay-off out of that. But I do not knwo exactly what happened, nor the exact intricate details concerning privace law, however at first glance it does appear that there has been a big no-no

 

[hektoren]

All this business regarding the "idiotic" behavior of a single athlete is pure nonsense. For this is the common praxis of the professional cyclist and only the foolish or hypocritical would think otherwise.... What else is there to expect?

....or perhaps they're just weary of people making ecological inference fallacies, making assumptions about prevalence based on headlines in the press....

Just saying.