Richie Porte Discussion Thread.

[SeriousSam]

Re:

It's funny (or rather annoying) how Porte's GT ambitions by some blindfolded fans keep reappearing on this forum on regular basis. I dont want to be repeating myself over and over so I will use LS quote from today as that is pretty much what I have been saying for years.

"Porte is starting to strike me as one of those guys who doesn't have the recovery to win a GT - superb over one week, but he tends to have a bad day where it goes really wrong... "

I'd agree with that claim, the important part being 'starting to strike me' which is far from a definite judgement. The results do point that way, but not decisively yet. There's a glimmer of hope yet for Little Richie Porte.

I mean, it's true, newcomers to elite GT racing like Landa, Aru, Quintana, Froome burst onto the scene and were immediately podium contenders, and achieved podiums. But Porte has shown elite climbing and elite time trialling, something TJ has never done, which, together with his ability to dominate the one week circuit, makes him worth a punt for GT glory when your other option is hopeless TJ.

Looking forward to LRP putting minutes into Teejay at the first MTF of the Tour.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

It's funny (or rather annoying) how Porte's GT ambitions by some blindfolded fans keep reappearing on this forum on regular basis. I dont want to be repeating myself over and over so I will use LS quote from today as that is pretty much what I have been saying for years.

"Porte is starting to strike me as one of those guys who doesn't have the recovery to win a GT - superb over one week, but he tends to have a bad day where it goes really wrong... "

I'd agree with that claim, the important part being 'starting to strike me' which is far from a definite judgement. The results do point that way, but not decisively yet. There's a glimmer of hope yet for Little Richie Porte.

I mean, it's true, newcomers to elite GT racing like Landa, Aru, Quintana, Froome burst onto the scene and were immediately podium contenders, and achieved podiums. But Porte has shown elite climbing and elite time trialling, something TJ has never done, which, together with his ability to dominate the one week circuit, makes him worth a punt for GT glory when your other option is hopeless TJ.

Looking forward to LRP putting minutes into Teejay at the first MTF of the Tour.

You say Porte has shown "elite" climbing and tt'ing fitness - something TJ hasn't never shown (some would argue that.) On the flip side, Porte has never shown consistency over 3 weeks and TJ has. Which is better? Well when speaking of gt's neither is better by itself. A million excuses can be made for Porte, but until he blends his "elite" skills with consistency, it will mean nothing in gt's.

 

[Electress]

Re: Re:

What is funny is how that Contador's record in grand tours has no bearing on Porte's consistent inability to perform up to expectations. Having the constitution to withstand the rigors of the 3 weeks of a grand tour is what is being discussed here. Porte has shown that he simply has not displayed that ability while the rivals that he's hoping to defeat have. His rivals have shown the ability weather the times where sickness or injury has handicapped them. They may not win the overall but they have shown the ability to minimise their losses and still finish in a respectable position in the gc. His bad days are catostrophic, leaving him either in the backseat of the team car or reaching stage end of mountainous stages with the sprinters.

It is striking how quickly a discussion about a Sky rider somehow drags Contador into the discussion. As Angliru says, this is nothing to do with AC or his fan base - you could make a comparison with any repeat GT winner.

To merit serious consideration as a GT rider, one must surely be able to demonstrate the track record. No matter how 'legitimate' or not the reasons might be, if you don't deliver on your potential time after time, you stop looking like a serious contender.

It doesn't help how Porte reacted to his 'misfortune' at the Giro - frankly, he looked like he just gave up. That is not the reaction of a winner - and you can look at either Contador or Froome as a comparison for that. Neither are quitters in adversity, and I'm afraid that was not the impression I had of Porte in the Giro (and given the comments of his team mate - I forget which one - I believe that there may have been those in Sky who shared the opinion.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

@ damiam13ster:
Just for the sake of accuracy, the post that you're quoting should be attributed to me and not movingtarget.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

It's funny (or rather annoying) how Porte's GT ambitions by some blindfolded fans keep reappearing on this forum on regular basis. I dont want to be repeating myself over and over so I will use LS quote from today as that is pretty much what I have been saying for years.

"Porte is starting to strike me as one of those guys who doesn't have the recovery to win a GT - superb over one week, but he tends to have a bad day where it goes really wrong... "

I'd agree with that claim, the important part being 'starting to strike me' which is far from a definite judgement. The results do point that way, but not decisively yet. There's a glimmer of hope yet for Little Richie Porte.

I mean, it's true, newcomers to elite GT racing like Landa, Aru, Quintana, Froome burst onto the scene and were immediately podium contenders, and achieved podiums. But Porte has shown elite climbing and elite time trialling, something TJ has never done, which, together with his ability to dominate the one week circuit, makes him worth a punt for GT glory when your other option is hopeless TJ.

Looking forward to LRP putting minutes into Teejay at the first MTF of the Tour.

You say Porte has shown "elite" climbing and tt'ing fitness - something TJ hasn't never shown (some would argue that.) On the flip side, Porte has never shown consistency over 3 weeks and TJ has. Which is better? Well when speaking of gt's neither is better by itself. A million excuses can be made for Porte, but until he blends his "elite" skills with consistency, it will mean nothing in gt's.

In my view, having bad days and wilting under adversity (LRP's GT bids thus far) is a more fixable problem, through coaching and a supportive team, than the physiological inability to be within a minute of Froome at a crucial Tour MTF.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

In my view, having bad days and wilting under adversity (LRP's GT bids thus far) is a more fixable problem, through coaching and a supportive team, than the physiological inability to be within a minute of Froome at a crucial Tour MTF.

This is an era when riders often seem to go from having an apparent physiological inability to compete with the best in a crucial Tour MTF to being world beaters. Who is to say that TJ won't be the next Froome or Landa?

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

This is an era when riders often seem to go from having an apparent physiological inability to compete with the best in a crucial Tour MTF to being world beaters. Who is to say that TJ won't be the next Froome or Landa?

TJ can't be a Froome or Landa, he's actually shown previous ability

 

[SeriousSam]

Re: Re:

In my view, having bad days and wilting under adversity (LRP's GT bids thus far) is a more fixable problem, through coaching and a supportive team, than the physiological inability to be within a minute of Froome at a crucial Tour MTF.

This is an era when riders often seem to go from having an apparent physiological inability to compete with the best in a crucial Tour MTF to being world beaters. Who is to say that TJ won't be the next Froome or Landa?

He's probably already been on everything they're on (namely, his bike, training hard and smart) and hasn't reached their level, so it's very unlikely.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

In my view, having bad days and wilting under adversity (LRP's GT bids thus far) is a more fixable problem, through coaching and a supportive team, than the physiological inability to be within a minute of Froome at a crucial Tour MTF.

This is an era when riders often seem to go from having an apparent physiological inability to compete with the best in a crucial Tour MTF to being world beaters. Who is to say that TJ won't be the next Froome or Landa?

You mean like every other era ?

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

In my view, having bad days and wilting under adversity (LRP's GT bids thus far) is a more fixable problem, through coaching and a supportive team, than the physiological inability to be within a minute of Froome at a crucial Tour MTF.

This is an era when riders often seem to go from having an apparent physiological inability to compete with the best in a crucial Tour MTF to being world beaters. Who is to say that TJ won't be the next Froome or Landa?

You mean like every other era ?

Name people from another era who went from nothing to greatness like Froome.

Go on, list examples

 

[Dog]

Literally everyone who has achieved greatness started at nothing.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Literally everyone who has achieved greatness started at nothing.

Anyone want to attempt an actual answer instead of pretending to not get the question?

Yeah, didn't think so.

 

[Ramon Koran]

Literally everyone who has achieved greatness started at nothing.

Anyone want to attempt an actual answer instead of pretending to not get the question?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Every era there has been a rider who has shown very little before making a huge break throw think Andy schleck giro 2007, fignon pre 1983 tour, ocana.... So yeah there have been many riders who have spent a few years not at top level before everything clicks and the results just come like for landa or Froome. You could argue every rider has a breakthrough performance at some point, even Contador Paris nice 2007 or Armstrong wc 1993

 

[ray j willings]

I think Porte will win the Tour this year . He then will go on to win the Vuelta and strike gold at Rio in both events.
I also think that I will finally develop a invisible cardigan and my project to extract gold from spiders legs will also reap great rewards.

LRP " 3 weeks of inevitable disappointment"

 

[GuyIncognito]

Every era there has been a rider who has shown very little before making a huge break throw think Andy schleck giro 2007, fignon pre 1983 tour, ocana....

So your examples of guys who showed 'physical incapability to follow the best for years' are a guy who finished 2nd in the Giro at age 21, a guy who won the Tour at age 22 having already led the Giro and Vuelta and finished top 10 on GC, and a guy who as a 22 year old neo-pro was spanish national champion and podiumed the first stage race he did while winning three stages?

I'm wondering if you could possibly have come up with any worse examples in cycling history.

So yeah there have been many riders who have spent a few years not at top level before everything clicks and the results just come

If there have been, you sure didn't name any
Froome showed nothing as a youth rider, nothing as a young pro and then nothing for years as a domestique. Then in the two weeks between the 2011 Tour of Poland and 2011 Vuelta he developed a third lung. In his 5th pro season. Name a credible example in history of that happening (and saying Wiggins doesn't count for obvious reasons)

 

[movingtarget]

Every era there has been a rider who has shown very little before making a huge break throw think Andy schleck giro 2007, fignon pre 1983 tour, ocana....

So your examples of guys who showed 'physical incapability to follow the best for years' are a guy who finished 2nd in the Giro at age 21, a guy who won the Tour at age 22 having already led the Giro and Vuelta and finished top 10 on GC, and a guy who as a 22 year old neo-pro was spanish national champion and podiumed the first stage race he did while winning three stages?

I'm wondering if you could possibly have come up with any worse examples in cycling history.

So yeah there have been many riders who have spent a few years not at top level before everything clicks and the results just come

If there have been, you sure didn't name any
Froome showed nothing as a youth rider, nothing as a young pro and then nothing for years as a domestique. Then in the two weeks between the 2011 Tour of Poland and 2011 Vuelta he developed a third lung. In his 5th pro season. Name a credible example in history of that happening (and saying Wiggins doesn't count for obvious reasons)

Truly you really think Froome is the Boogeyman for the the entire history of cycling ? Anyone who thinks Armstrong and Sky invented industrial cheating is delusional. If you feel that way I wonder what you are doing on this thread at all instead of just posting in the Clinic.

 

[cellardoor]

...in any case, TJ and Porte wouldn't be examples of Froome-style transformations even if they were to win the Tour - both have shown potential from a young age.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Literally everyone who has achieved greatness started at nothing.

Anyone want to attempt an actual answer instead of pretending to not get the question?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Gimondi fits. 3rd in Giro 1965. He came into TDF1965 as replacement for a helper and won. First year as professional

 

[observer]

Re: Re:

I don't even understand how he can even talk about GT leadership when he's had one fluke top 10 - five years ago. After that, his average GT GC position is place 57, not counting the GT he didn't finish.

This! It's all a big joke.

Well, some people including me don't think so. And apparently BMC was willing to throw a bunch of money his way since they believe in his potential as well. If anything, he is one of the best 1 week racers.

Again: What makes him intriguing is his potential since he can climb and TT with the best. Only 4-5 riders in the peloton have that and Porte is one of them.

BMC are throwing money at him because they like selling bikes in Australia.
They would have seen without Cadel they weren't getting as much exposure.
Most Aussies have blinkers on and only watch the TDF.
Porte fits in with the narrative they need for marketing purposes.

that is it, he was available and marketable in the territory they want.
TJ wouldn't be worried about Porte.

 

[SeriousSam]

I think TJ will be worried when the Dawg goes off the front and a grinning LRP uses the occasion to drop TJ like hot potato at the Tour.

But sure, BMC like selling bikes in the US, so his place is secure. For now.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Every era there has been a rider who has shown very little before making a huge break throw think Andy schleck giro 2007, fignon pre 1983 tour, ocana....

So your examples of guys who showed 'physical incapability to follow the best for years' are a guy who finished 2nd in the Giro at age 21, a guy who won the Tour at age 22 having already led the Giro and Vuelta and finished top 10 on GC, and a guy who as a 22 year old neo-pro was spanish national champion and podiumed the first stage race he did while winning three stages?

I'm wondering if you could possibly have come up with any worse examples in cycling history.

So yeah there have been many riders who have spent a few years not at top level before everything clicks and the results just come

If there have been, you sure didn't name any
Froome showed nothing as a youth rider, nothing as a young pro and then nothing for years as a domestique. Then in the two weeks between the 2011 Tour of Poland and 2011 Vuelta he developed a third lung. In his 5th pro season. Name a credible example in history of that happening (and saying Wiggins doesn't count for obvious reasons)

Truly you really think Froome is the Boogeyman for the the entire history of cycling ? Anyone who thinks Armstrong and Sky invented industrial cheating is delusional. If you feel that way I wonder what you are doing on this thread at all instead of just posting in the Clinic.

Who said anything about cheating? Some guy said there have been tons of examples before Froome. Then failed to name even one. Still waiting for someone to name one.

Literally everyone who has achieved greatness started at nothing.

Anyone want to attempt an actual answer instead of pretending to not get the question?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Gimondi fits. 3rd in Giro 1965. He came into TDF1965 as replacement for a helper and won. First year as professional

Again, we're not looking for a guy who turned pro and instantly was amazing, that is the exact opposite of Froome.
We're looking for a guy who was below average for years upon years, then suddenly became amazing out of the blue.

 

[gregrowlerson]

[/quote]Again, we're not looking for a guy who turned pro and instantly was amazing, that is the exact opposite of Froome.
We're looking for a guy who was below average for years upon years, then suddenly became amazing out of the blue.[/quote]

Cobo?

And by the way, what happened to him after the 2011 Vuelta?

 

[GuyIncognito]

Cobo?

And by the way, what happened to him after the 2011 Vuelta?

Cobo was never amazing, but he was pretty good from the start. Nearly won a ProTour race and was placing very well already as a 2nd year pro.

What happened after 2011? A mixture of what PremierAndrew said (EDIT his post has now been deleted, as we can't discuss that outside the clinic) and mental issues. The guy is a bit of a nutcase, has always struggled with depression, bipolar disorder and general motivation issues.

To give you an idea of how nuts his mood swings are, back in 2007 he won País Vasco and got 8th in Liége. Pretty good results, right? Just a month later he didn't do much in Catalunya (8th in the TT but nowhere on GC) and suddenly felt so worthless that his family said they were afraid he might commit suicide.

 

[Ramon Koran]

My point is that none of the riders I named were viewed as the next big thing untill they won a major race out of the blue or at least had a high placing. the same can be said of landa and Froome neither were viewed as the next big thing untill they had their hig gc results.

 

[Angliru]

Literally everyone who has achieved greatness started at nothing.

Anyone want to attempt an actual answer instead of pretending to not get the question?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Gimondi fits. 3rd in Giro 1965. He came into TDF1965 as replacement for a helper and won. First year as professional

Nope. He won Tour de l'Avenir prior to this Tour win. To fit one would have to have come from a prior record of mediocre placings, not winning the most important race for young prospects.