Riis close to Collapse after Contador 'surprise'?

[JPM London]

I remember stories of Riis and Fränkie seen at the building were Fuentes had his office but nothing about Cance. Any source?

Maybe I'm mixing it up - I thought the sighting was Canc...

Anyway - Johnny Weltz chimes in:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sporten.dk%2Fcykling%2Ftyler-var-bjarnes-projekt

- I knew practically nothing of what was going on with Tyler Hamilton in the years when he and I were together at Team CSC. Hamilton lived largely in Riis at the beginning of his time on the team. They used Luigi Cecchini (Italian turbo doctor, ed.) As a coach, so I do not know when Hamilton would be subject to being introduced to Fuentes says Weltz to sporten.dk.

- It is not something I have mentioned above. I saw well enough Tyler's itinerary once in a while and I could surprise me that he had to Madrid to take the race. When I asked Tyler about why it was such, he explained that it was because he had to consult an allergy expert, explains Weltz, from time to time hear about the fallen star's collapse.

Oh dear...

I know Riis keeps defending Cecchini and says he was not involved with his own doping and did not do anything of those sorts either while working with CSC, BUT even if that's actually true - what other reasons than doping could you possibly have for introducing someone to Fuentes unless they were pregnant??

 

[sniper]

isn't one of Riis' sons trying to become a pro?
Doubt that he's happy now being associated with his dad.

 

[sniper]

Maybe I'm mixing it up - I thought the sighting was Canc...

Anyway - Johnny Weltz chimes in:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sporten.dk%2Fcykling%2Ftyler-var-bjarnes-projekt

- I knew practically nothing of what was going on with Tyler Hamilton in the years when he and I were together at Team CSC. Hamilton lived largely in Riis at the beginning of his time on the team. They used Luigi Cecchini (Italian turbo doctor, ed.) As a coach, so I do not know when Hamilton would be subject to being introduced to Fuentes says Weltz to sporten.dk.

- It is not something I have mentioned above. I saw well enough Tyler's itinerary once in a while and I could surprise me that he had to Madrid to take the race. When I asked Tyler about why it was such, he explained that it was because he had to consult an allergy expert, explains Weltz, from time to time hear about the fallen star's collapse.

Oh dear...

you mean that google translation?

Hamilton lived largely in Riis at the beginning of his time on the team.

 

[Fidolix]

How typical!!

As nobody already knew about Riis involvement with Fuentes, and now just because a book comes out saying what we already known for years, he a ******bag? Get a life, atleast Riis admitted he was involved and had dope, like the rest of the peloton already did, and most likely still do, if you think anybody from the "old days" were innocent then and are innocent now, then you really must be naive.

Riis admitted he was doped, try and find a DS today who wasn´t, good luck.
The sport is cleaner today?
Hell no, they just do a better job hiding it, and the science is way behind, and it´s surely not getting easier to catch anybody with that fat irish man at the wheel.

Riis is not one bit more involved than anybody else out there, he just admitted it, and now people sit here swearing he should be out of cycling...
then close the sport, everybody was and still is involved.

 

[screaming fist]

Bjarne admitted he himself was doped during his career, but always maintaned he never connected his riders to Fuentes etc ("Now, I've got a whole other responsibility").

 

[sniper]

How typical!!

As nobody already knew about Riis involvement with Fuentes, and now just because a book comes out saying what we already known for years, he a ******bag? Get a life, atleast Riis admitted he was involved and had dope, like the rest of the peloton already did, and most likely still do, if you think anybody from the "old days" were innocent then and are innocent now, then you really must be naive.

Riis admitted he was doped, try and find a DS today who wasn´t, good luck.
The sport is cleaner today?
Hell no, they just do a better job hiding it, and the science is way behind, and it´s surely not getting easier to catch anybody with that fat irish man at the wheel.



Riis is not one bit more involved than anybody else out there, he just admitted it, and now people sit here swearing he should be out of cycling...
then close the sport, everybody was and still is involved.

I'm afraid there is some truth in this.

It's also true that his doping admission came after the Fuentes scandal, so I assume with a bit of goodwill one could still believe that Riis has seen jesus and has become a clean DS after the Telekom-scam, leading up to his admission.

Bjarne admitted he himself was doped during his career, but always maintaned he never connected his riders to Fuentes etc ("Now, I've got a whole other responsibility").

good point, but has he claimed more explicitly that he wasn't involved with Fuentes?

 

[Benotti69]

How typical!!

As nobody already knew about Riis involvement with Fuentes, and now just because a book comes out saying what we already known for years, he a ******bag? Get a life, atleast Riis admitted he was involved and had dope, like the rest of the peloton already did, and most likely still do, if you think anybody from the "old days" were innocent then and are innocent now, then you really must be naive.

Riis admitted he was doped, try and find a DS today who wasn´t, good luck.
The sport is cleaner today?
Hell no, they just do a better job hiding it, and the science is way behind, and it´s surely not getting easier to catch anybody with that fat irish man at the wheel.

Riis is not one bit more involved than anybody else out there, he just admitted it, and now people sit here swearing he should be out of cycling...
then close the sport, everybody was and still is involved.

It is starting to look like it is time to burn it to ground and start again.

Especially when fans think it is ok for cheating because everyone was doing it.

Riis amitted to doping as a rider when it was going to finger him in the T-Mobile investigation. He had no choice. He did not admit to being a DS that enabled doping. That is a whole other level. I want to see him and all the other doping teams/DS/doctors etc out of the sport.

 

[sniper]

So we should accept it so?

I am not going to accept it whatsoever. Kimmage done a great interview on CN a couple of days ago when he said there is no place in this sport going forward with the likes of Bruyneel, Riis, Lelangue and Ochowicz around. Get these creeps out who don't have a care in the world for the fans of the sport.

This sport needs root and branch review with major surgery done to it. As Benotti just said, burn it down and start from scratch if needs be. The sport may go through some transition short-term as a result but it would be better all round in the long-term going forward.

Wait up, why start from scratch if cycling is visibly cleaning up and is finally yielding the fruits of years-long anti-doping pressure?

Vaughters: I feel like the only reason, in a roundabout way, everything that Floyd went through and the scandal of [Operación] Puerto, like those two things, that whole three-year period, the pressure that put the sport under to clean up and put in new measures and the scrutiny it was under, that was the soil that allowed [Garmin’s] Ryder [Hesjedal] to win the Giro d’Italia clean.

Vaughters: I think it is so much cleaner than it used to be.

http://www.bicycling.com/garmin-ins...nathan-vaughters-talks-doping-reform?page=0,1

 

[sniper]

So we should accept it so?

I am not going to accept it whatsoever. Kimmage done a great interview on CN a couple of days ago when he said there is no place in this sport going forward with the likes of Bruyneel, Riis, Lelangue and Ochowicz around. Get these creeps out who don't have a care in the world for the fans of the sport.

This sport needs root and branch review with major surgery done to it. As Benotti just said, burn it down and start from scratch if needs be. The sport may go through some transition short-term as a result but it would be better all round in the long-term going forward.

Wait up, why start from scratch if cycling is visibly cleaning up already and is finally yielding the fruits of years-long anti-doping pressure?

Vaughters: (...) the pressure that put the sport under to clean up and put in new measures and the scrutiny it was under, that was the soil that allowed [Garmin’s] Ryder [Hesjedal] to win the Giro d’Italia clean.

Vaughters: I think it is so much cleaner than it used to be.

http://www.bicycling.com/garmin-ins...nathan-vaughters-talks-doping-reform?page=0,1

 

[Mr.38%]

NZZ, 29. September 2008, over a year after his admission
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/startseite/bjarne-riis-kennt-dopingarzt-fuentes-garantiert-nicht-1.947648

Riis dementierte am Sonntag: «Ich garantiere zu 100 Prozent, dass ich Fuentes nicht kenne und auch nie mit ihm zu tun hatte.»

Riis disclaimed on Sunday: "I guarantee 100%, I do not know Fuentes and never dealt with him."

 

[screaming fist]

Riis is just totally pragmatic and opportunist. He doped as a rider because he thought it was the only way to be successfull. He was propably right. There was no doubt he tolerated his riders doping for the same reasons and it looks like he helped some of them to get connected with sources.

When he was introducing his internal program, he did it for the same reasons. It was good PR and maybe he actually hoped for a cleaner sport. I don't think he some drug-crazy überdoper, but someone who is like "doping isn't nice, but we don't have a choice."

I've known Checchini introduced riders to Fuentes and I've known Riis introduced Tyler to Checchini when the former joined CSC (or was Checchini still a doctor at CSC then?), maybe that's the real story? Not that the direct Riis-Fuentes connection isn't plausible, just thinking of options here

 

[JPM London]

I've known Checchini introduced riders to Fuentes and I've known Riis introduced Tyler to Checchini when the former joined CSC (or was Checchini still a doctor at CSC then?), maybe that's the real story? Not that the direct Riis-Fuentes connection isn't plausible, just thinking of options here

For now we've only been fed what is a second hand quote from someone reading an advance copy. It's not unlikely that the full quote has been shortened and taken out of context as you suggest.

I have so far been quite happy to believe Riis dropped doping after Festina, didn't want it on his team when he took it over and - with his defence of Cecchini - had no rpoblem working with him until he was pressured to end it from the bad publicity.

I have no knowledge of the connection between LC and EF, but I hope your last bit there could be the way it actually played out.

Ok, now I'll prepare myself for the flack to be inflicted upon myself for suggesting Riis and Cecchini can be other than knee-deep in dope...

 

[hrotha]

That's not what Jaksche implied, if I recall correctly.

 

[GJB123]

That's not what Jaksche implied, if I recall correctly.

What do you mean? Did Jaksche imply Riis and Fuentes know each other or that Cecchini and Riis were knee deep into dope or both?

 

[hrotha]

What do you mean? Did Jaksche imply Riis and Fuentes know each other or that Cecchini and Riis were knee deep into dope or both?

No, I mean he implied Riis was quite happy and open about his riders doping. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't think he said anything about Cecchini or Fuentes.

 

[screaming fist]

Jaksche said there was no team-wide organized doping program at CSC. But he had a conversation with Riis during a holiday spent together where they discussed "different methods a rider can use" (not a word by word quote but that's how I remember it.
Jaksche changed some of his stories to be more dramatic over the time so he may said other things later. I'm reffering to the first big interview in DER SPIEGEL. I have to look if I still have that.

Edit - found it: http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/j...n-doping-wie-vom-windelwechseln-a-492215.html
In German, try google translate. If you have any questions, feel free to ask

 

[GJB123]

No, I mean he implied Riis was quite happy and open about his riders doping. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't think he said anything about Cecchini or Fuentes.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. It was difficult to see what you were referencing.

Regards
GJ

 

[GJB123]

Jaksche said there was no team-wide organized doping program at CSC. But he had a conversation with Riis during a holiday spent together where they discussed "different methods a rider can use" (not a word by word quote but that's how I remember it.
Jaksche changed some of his stories to be more dramatic over the time so he may said other things later. I'm reffering to the first big interview in DER SPIEGEL. I have to look if I still have that.

Edit - found it: http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/j...n-doping-wie-vom-windelwechseln-a-492215.html
In German, try google translate. If you have any questions, feel free to ask

Thx, I am quite fluent in German, so that will work out.

 

[screaming fist]

Jaksche started working with Fuentes in 2005 at Liberty-Seguros.

 

[JPM London]

That's not what Jaksche implied, if I recall correctly.

That's not really saying much, is it?

We need more detail - as far as I remember:
Jaksche first claimed Riis adviced in his doping, he then changed it to being aware of it and Riis saying he should be careful (the ski-lift incident).
Riis said that was not true...

Jaksche also claimed Riis had threatened "to make sure JJ would never get another job in cycling" if he came clean. Riis said that wasn't true and that he merely told him if he did come clean and involved other people he shouldn't expect anyone to hire him after that. Funny enough that sounds exactly like the FL/JV altercations.
Follwoing that JJ said that, no, Riis had not threatened him...

Anyone who can add/correct any of the detail above?

 

[airstream]

probably there's nothing new in comparison to what we could assume. to me, this ultimately confirms that riis knew everything about basso. bjarne surely denies everything. sadly, looks like lie is the only thing that keeps this sport afloat...

 

[hrotha]

Jaksche said there was no team-wide organized doping program at CSC. But he had a conversation with Riis during a holiday spent together where they discussed "different methods a rider can use" (not a word by word quote but that's how I remember it.
Jaksche changed some of his stories to be more dramatic over the time so he may said other things later. I'm reffering to the first big interview in DER SPIEGEL. I have to look if I still have that.

Edit - found it: http://www.spiegel.de/sport/sonst/j...n-doping-wie-vom-windelwechseln-a-492215.html
In German, try google translate. If you have any questions, feel free to ask

Thanks! I can read it just fine, no worries.

It's more or less the way I remembered it, although the bit about Riis is rather along the lines of what you said. Still, it's pretty damning. I never understood why nobody made a big fuss about it.

 

[JPM London]

Riis denies knowing Fuentes

The Danish team owner is very specific in his denial that he should have introduced the American rider of doping doctor Fuentes.

- I can absolutely clear deny that it should be the case. It is simply not true, says Bjarne Riis Ritzau.

Team owner even goes a step further. Bjarne Riis claims that he never met the Spanish doctor.

- I do not know Fuentes, I have never met him, says Bjarne Riis.

 

[hrotha]

Riis denies knowing Fuentes

The Danish team owner is very specific in his denial that he should have introduced the American rider of doping doctor Fuentes.

- I can absolutely clear deny that it should be the case. It is simply not true, says Bjarne Riis Ritzau.

Team owner even goes a step further. Bjarne Riis claims that he never met the Spanish doctor.

- I do not know Fuentes, I have never met him, says Bjarne Riis.

He's never met him. Has he referred riders to him, though? Did he know his contact info?

 

[screaming fist]

Thanks! I can read it just fine, no worries.

It's more or less the way I remembered it, although the bit about Riis is rather along the lines of what you said. Still, it's pretty damning. I never understood why nobody made a big fuss about it.

Appeared rather as a sidenote to Fuentes internationally, I guess.
In Germany, Jaksche's allegation's created a fuss in the media, maybe his stories got too iconsistent or he just didn't work out as a TV doping expert. Media simply lost interest in him.

He's never met him. Has he referred riders to him, though? Did he know his contact info?

Good obersavtion, reminds me how he describes in his book that he tried to never actually say "I don't dope"