Riis close to Collapse after Contador 'surprise'?

[GJB123]

Well we know from Bassons that you can be clean in a dirty team. However if it is more like allowing or enabling doping (Rabobank-style) rather than administering or forcing it on people (Once, USPostal, Festina, etc.). Who knows, Riis might fall into the Rabobank-category. It wouldn't surprise me at all. He is obviously an intelligent guy who was perfectly able to make his own informed decision to dope in his career and I suspect he felt (or perhaps even feels) that his riders can do the same.

 

[JPM London]

Well we know from Bassons that you can be clean in a dirty team. However if it is more like allowing or enabling doping (Rabobank-style) rather than administering or forcing it on people (Once, USPostal, Festina, etc.). Who knows, Riis might fall into the Rabobank-category. It wouldn't surprise me at all. He is obviously an intelligent guy who was perfectly able to make his own informed decision to dope in his career and I suspect he felt (or perhaps even feels) that his riders can do the same.

I don't think there's much doubt that if he did anything it was only to accept it. Not even Jaksche claims Riis organised doping... He only claims Riis was in the know.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I don't think there's much doubt that if he did anything it was only to accept it. Not even Jaksche claims Riis organised doping... He only claims Riis was in the know.

Big difference between looking the other way and sending a rider to a doping doc, although neither is acceptable.

 

[JPM London]

Big difference between looking the other way and sending a rider to a doping doc, although neither is acceptable.

No - neither is. And in Riis' case definitely so. After Puerto he set up the internal testing and after his own admission he's been very clear about his 0-tolerance policy - not least in his book.

Even if he's just silently accepting certain behaviour - even if he's merely suspecting something - that's a huge deal.

However, there's still the issue of timing. There's a step from cleaning up your own act while leaving others to their own conscience to not accepting dirty riders in your team full stop. If that step was taken in 2006 (and further in 2007 with his admission), then riders before then could conceivably have been left with the decision for themselves.

He's always been all about taking personal responsibility and I could imagine that at an earlier point - while having walked away from dope himself - he would accept that riders were still left with the choice of "clean or career".

However - if he did establish the contact to Fuentes while knowing all he did was doping, then that is clearly an active role...

vvvv curious to see what else comes from the book re TH/BR...

 

[sniper]

I too would like to hear if there is anything about Sastre.

Most seem to think he was clean, but his teams and DSs suggest otherwise.

As sad as it is, his 2008 TdF victory, enclosed by two doping TdFs (2007&2009), also suggests otherwise.

 

[airstream]

ye he probably knew everything about Andy and Fränk too. But one thing is knowing, another is actively promoting use of doping.

iirc there were 2 rumors. one, straight after the 2007 Giro, that allegedly 6 or 7 riders out of final top 10 were caught, but rcs discreetly decided to sweep that under the carpet because other the race would have had to be annuled. this info circulated quite officialy. and the second one is that 5 csc saxo bank guys were caught on cera during the 2008, but riis surely resolved it. i'm not sure regarding the second one. did you hear something about that, guys?

 

[JPM London]

iirc there were 2 rumors. one, straight after the 2007 Giro, that allegedly 6 or 7 riders out of final top 10 were caught, but rcs discreetly decided to sweep that under the carpet because other the race would have had to be annuled. this info circulated quite officialy. and the second one is that 5 csc saxo bank guys were caught on cera during the 2008, but riis surely resolved it. i'm not sure regarding the second one. did you hear something about that, guys?

I've never heard either... Have you got more on those?

The only thing I can come up with that sounds like the above is that the 2008 Giro had 6-7 suspicious test results, but nothing about CSC/Saxo in there...

 

[Ferminal]

The 2008 Tour rumour has been around a few times here.

Never heard anything about the 2007 Giro, but you only have to look at the top10...

 

[Alpehue]

I never heard any of those rumors, does anyone have any more information, or possibly a link?

 

[Gregga]

... and the second one is that 5 csc saxo bank guys were caught on cera during the 2008, but riis surely resolved it. i'm not sure regarding the second one. did you hear something about that, guys?

I clearly remember this, it was when samples of the 2008 Tdf (and of the olympics) were retested, when only "little fishes" like Schumacher, Kohl and Piepoli were caught. The rumour was that "leaders in a big team" were also positive but in the end this big stuff collapsed, but we where many to think CSC was the "big team"

 

[webvan]

Same here, but yes, who can believe that Di Lucca and Mazzolini were clean on that 2007 Giro ?

 

[JPM London]

Found this by our very own Susan W:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/csc-internal-doping-controls-now-includes-cera-tests

 

[airstream]

Same here, but yes, who can believe that Di Lucca and Mazzolini were clean on that 2007 Giro ?

But was it possible not to root for Grandissimo Il Killer in that race?

2007 is the year when cycling kicked back to the full in doping aspect. The sport bristled with rumors and probably someone decided to speculate on the Giro this way. Unfortunately, many many news sank on CN old site. I'll try to search on vn.

2008 is more suspectful though. Fabian dragging up the group of 30 climbers at the top of Croix de Fer. Brrrr... Sastre said he was going to make a move on de Fer yet, but Bjarne didn't let him. And Andy pulling the group during 10k and then easily dropping Valverde and Sanchez at the summit of Bonnette.

 

[Maxiton]

Well we know from Bassons that you can be clean in a dirty team. However if it is more like allowing or enabling doping (Rabobank-style) rather than administering or forcing it on people (Once, USPostal, Festina, etc.). Who knows, Riis might fall into the Rabobank-category. It wouldn't surprise me at all. He is obviously an intelligent guy who was perfectly able to make his own informed decision to dope in his career and I suspect he felt (or perhaps even feels) that his riders can do the same.

I don't think there's much doubt that if he did anything it was only to accept it. Not even Jaksche claims Riis organised doping... He only claims Riis was in the know.

Big difference between looking the other way and sending a rider to a doping doc, although neither is acceptable.

Riis cares about one thing: winning. For Riis, I think, if a rider can win, by whatever means, and not get caught, that makes him and his team - and his team's owner and sponsors - the winner. Simple.

As far as team-organized doping, I think Riis regards that as passe - no longer practical. Nowadays, a team provides the screening tests to keep everything on track, and outsources the doping.

 

[sniper]

Found this by our very own Susan W:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/csc-internal-doping-controls-now-includes-cera-tests

After reading this article, I don't understand anymore why you guys keep slamming Riis and labeling him as a dope DS?
He has a team philosophy that reads very similar to Garmin's. If Garmin gets the benefit of the doubt, Riis/CSC should as well.
What hard facts do we have on Riis/CSC? No more than we have on JV/Garmin, right? (serious question)

 

[Lanark]

What do you mean with 'hard facts'? We have several witnesses (Jaksche, Hamilton) saying Riis either was completely aware of doping practices or maybe even faciltated them. Apart from that, a large contignent of his most succesfull riders were later caught (Basso, Hamilton etc.), and his current star is a proven doper who is completely unrepentant and still makes a mockery of his fans with his preposterous meat-story.

There's no 'dirt' on JV that's even remotely comparable to that.

 

[hrotha]

This is getting more and more damning for Riis:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network

 

[airstream]

This is getting more and more damning for Riis:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network

lol, as many of us assumed, there was a real crime syndicate.

 

[webvan]

Riis must go, NOW !

 

[BroDeal]

Riis must go, NOW !

The funny thing is that the Tyler's book might have stuff about his time on Tinkoff, who is now a sponsor for Riis. It could be a double whammy.

 

[roundabout]

This is getting more and more damning for Riis:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network

That would depend on the quality of research by Coyle. If it's just Hamilton making the allegations then Riis can continue his sergeant Schultz act.

 

[OctaBech]

I hope Riis takes it easy when he gets this news.

"Hamilton also writes that after he left the USPS team to join another squad, his team director, Bjarne Riis, introduced him to Madrid doctor Eufemiano Fuentes, who Hamilton says oversaw his blood doping for several years."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...acuses-doping-article-1.1148508#ixzz255pw23d1

Shouldn't this have had it's own thread?
There's a really big difference between Riis having helped his riders doping and a team betting its entire budget on a rider which UCI hides has been taken for doping.
Jonathan Vaugters thought Contador was clean from data the UCI has presented him, had he won the bidding war we would no longer have Garmin. A rather important point which get drowned in Riis' ill doings.

lol, as many of us assumed, there was a real crime syndicate.

Yes and probably not the best thing to come out during Fränk's case.

 

[sniper]

Jonathan Vaugters thought Contador was clean from data the UCI has presented him, had he won the bidding war we would no longer have Garmin. A rather important point which get drowned in Riis' ill doings.

that is a good point, but what does it have to do with Riis' ill doings?

 

[Cimber]

That would depend on the quality of research by Coyle. If it's just Hamilton making the allegations then Riis can continue his sergeant Schultz act.

Ye th crucial part is to be able to back up Tyler's statements with real evidence, cos as it seems the sponsors are backing Riis

 

[Lanark]

Yeah, although it would be glorious, I've little hope that this leads to the long awaited removal of Riis from the peloton.