Riis close to Collapse after Contador 'surprise'?

[sniper]

Don't have a specific link at hand, but should be "up-dig'able". The chain as I remember it - a lot like the Floyd/JV story - was JJ said Riis threatened him when JJ said he'd come clean, Riis then said he didn't threaten, but had definitely said if JJ implicated other people than himself he shouldn't expect to find work in the sport again, after which JJ said Bjarne hadn't threatened him. Now we all know that a threat can be many things - explicit or implicit - and we also know that things can be misunderstood. In that sense it's possible Riis did threaten JJ, but it's also possible he didn't...

It doesn't seem to me that Riis has any kind of good relation w UCI. They did indeed want to stick it to him back then. He wasn't welcom at the Tour (more ASO, I know), they dug out a bike scanner when the story about motorised Canc came out and although they seem to have tried to cover up Conti's pre-Saxo positive, they have been more than happy to make sure Riis won't get any points from him. What went on with the license re-evaluation earlier in the year I have no idea, but it doesn't look like the UCI likes him - he probably refuses to pay them

Compare the apparent difference in treatment between Riis and a certain belgian...

...

thanks JPM, good points.

 

[webvan]

In his book Riis says one of the reasons he didn't sign Ullrich to CSC was because of Jan's reliance on Pevenage. The strings between Telekom, Freiburg, Riis and Cecchini/Lombardi/Fuentes, Ullrich and Pevenage are all very interesting. It's not only about the dope - it's quite clearly also about who doped who...

Didn't know Ullrich had applied for CSC, was that after Puerto? Probably not since Pevenage was no longer in the picture. Is that possibly in 2002/2003 when Ullrich left Telekom for Team Coast/Bianchi? But yes, a lot of interesting combinations there with the "entourage"...

 

[neineinei]

Former CSC rider (2000-2006) Jakob Piilsounds much like Kurt Asle Arvesen: There might be something to it, can't see why Hamilton would lie, didn't see anything himself.

"Der kan jo være to sider af sagen, hvor den side, jeg kender til – det er det rene cykelhold"

"There might be two sides to this, where the side I know is the clean team."

http://sporten.tv2.dk/2012-09-04-piil-om-doping-der-må-være-noget-om-snakken?forside (Danish)

http://translate.google.no/translat...er-m%C3%A5-v%C3%A6re-noget-om-snakken?forside (Google translate)

 

[Jaskula]

Weird. Jaksche was a very good rider at CSC, and furthermore, he had ridden for ONCE and Telekom, so Riis could safely assume he'd be willing to work with Fuentes. The program must have been extremely limited in its scope if Jaksche couldn't have a place in it. Only the absolute team leaders, perhaps.

According to Jaksche, however, Riis did discuss the appropriate use of EPO with him in pre-season 2004:

amongst other things, he [JJ] describes having sat in a ski lift with Riis and talked about Jaksche's race calendar but also about what could be done so that he would be able to deliver the goods. Jaksche was getting anxious because riders were being tested for EPO and he was afraid of not being able to get up to scratch anymore.

Link

Perhaps Riis assumed that JJ with his past and connections at Telekom and Once would be able to supply himself? In hindsight, he did the right thing by not introducing him to Fuentes, given the moral habitus of the doctor's son, JJ - strategically, that is

/J

 

[webvan]

In hindsight, he did the right thing by not introducing him to Fuentes, given the moral habitus of the doctor's son, JJ - strategically, that is

The doctor's son ? You've lost me there ?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Didn't know Ullrich had applied for CSC, was that after Puerto? Probably not since Pevenage was no longer in the picture. Is that possibly in 2002/2003 when Ullrich left Telekom for Team Coast/Bianchi? But yes, a lot of interesting combinations there with the "entourage"...

Riis wanted to sign Ullrich in 2003.
However, CSC didn't have the money to sign him anyway.
Furthermore, i think Riis wanted Ullrich to quit working with Pevenage, which was of course unaccaptable for Jan.

 

[Jaskula]

The doctor's son ? You've lost me there ?

Sorry, I understand your confusion... JJ's father is a doctor, a real one who didn't have his tongue firmly in cheek during the hippocratic oath.

Hatten Sie ein schlechtes Gewissen, als Sie gedopt haben?
- Nur meiner Familie gegenüber. Die wussten davon nichts. Mein Vater ist Arzt, mein Bruder auch. Und dann kamen Gerüchte auf, dass die mir etwas organisiert haben könnten. Das war mir sehr unangenehm. Da hatte ich schon ein schlechtes Gewissen.

i.e.

Did you feel guilty when you doped?
- Only to my family. They knew nothing about it. My father is a doctor, my brother also. And then there were rumors that they might have organized it for me. It was very unpleasant. For sure, that gave me a bad conscience.

Link

/J

 

[webvan]

Thanks guys, I'm up to speed now!

 

[JPM London]

Doing a bit of heavy digging today...

One of Danish Media's biggest Riis critics over time, Lars Werge, has written quite a few articles and commentaries over time - often being berated violently afterwards by fans much like Armstrong fans do it...

The following is from 2008.

Comment: A phoenix

Interesting tidbits:
- It points to the rumour of Frank being seen w Riis in Madrid, although there's no further link apart from the author hearing the rumour repeatedly.

- It tells of how Frank - after having been a stagiare for a year - still had to bring half his own paycheck for the first season. That's how talented he was apparently...

- It also relays the rumour of how certain riders - incl Frank - stopped doing German races because the authorities there had acquired profiles from Puerto and were going to compare to samples collected in German races. PLEASE NOTE: I have not checked to what degree Schleck has ridden in DE or not.

 

[roundabout]

Former CSC rider (2000-2006) Jakob Piilsounds much like Kurt Asle Arvesen: There might be something to it, can't see why Hamilton would lie, didn't see anything himself.

"Der kan jo være to sider af sagen, hvor den side, jeg kender til – det er det rene cykelhold"

"There might be two sides to this, where the side I know is the clean team."

http://sporten.tv2.dk/2012-09-04-piil-om-doping-der-må-være-noget-om-snakken?forside (Danish)

http://translate.google.no/translat...er-m%C3%A5-v%C3%A6re-noget-om-snakken?forside (Google translate)

Maybe Piil can also explain why he magically became a pretty useful climber right in time for 2005 and 2006 Vueltas?

Edit: just 2005. He didn't ride in 2006 even though I thought he did

 

[sniper]

Doing a bit of heavy digging today...

One of Danish Media's biggest Riis critics over time, Lars Werge, has written quite a few articles and commentaries over time - often being berated violently afterwards by fans much like Armstrong fans do it...

The following is from 2008.

Comment: A phoenix

Interesting tidbits:
- It points to the rumour of Frank being seen w Riis in Madrid, although there's no further link apart from the author hearing the rumour repeatedly.

- It tells of how Frank - after having been a stagiare for a year - still had to bring half his own paycheck for the first season. That's how talented he was apparently...

- It also relays the rumour of how certain riders - incl Frank - stopped doing German races because the authorities there had acquired profiles from Puerto and were going to compare to samples collected in German races. PLEASE NOTE: I have not checked to what degree Schleck has ridden in DE or not.

good digging.
more here, 2008 Sueddeutsche Zeitung:
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/sport/doping-verdacht-schleck-war-fuentes-kunde-1.709601
The article gives a good overview:

That Riis, whose team around Sastre controlled the TdF, was involved in the dealings (with Fuentes, ed.) or may even have initiated them, that was pointed out already in July by investigators of the (Puerto, ed.) case. "Of course the names Riis and Schleck are known to us", they said back then.

Investigations suggest that Frank Schleck had the codename "Friend of Birillo", number 25 on Fuentes' list. Birillo is known to the Spanish police as Schleck's friend Basso.

We (the sueddeutsche zeitung, ed.) are in the possession of eyewitness statements, acording to which Riis and Schleck had met with Fuentes already in December 2005. Riis drove Schleck to Fuentes. This rumor has been circulating in the peloton for some time now. The middleman is said to have been Giovanni Lombardi who rode for Riis in 2006 and is the manager of Andy and Frank. He lives in Madrid like Fuentes

 

[JPM London]

Sniper, I know there's plenty of good stuff coming from Suddeutche, but I don't trust my own extremely rusty German and it always gets mangled beyond belief by Google - Could one tempt, plead, beg you into doing a manual translation of the best bits?

 

[hrotha]

Maybe Piil can also explain why he magically became a pretty useful climber right in time for 2005 and 2006 Vueltas?

Edit: just 2005. He didn't ride in 2006 even though I thought he did

Yeah, CSC was super strong for a while. Think no further than Julich, who was just a decent rider in allegedly clean(ish) Crédit Agricole and in post-Festina, pre-Freiburg Telekom (where, IIRC, Jaksche suggested there was more of a don't ask, don't tell policy and the doctors were there mostly to make sure no one was close to 50% hematocrit):
http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=31

 

[JPM London]

Boom! - there was the name Lombardi again

Would be interesting to get a comment from him, no doubt. I guess he doesn't even know what Madrid is...

Thanks Sniper. If you happen to accidentally translate more of the German stuff I'd be happy to read it - don't trust my rusty German skills too much and the mangled Google translations are even less helpful!

 

[sniper]

Boom! - there was the name Lombardi again

Would be interesting to get a comment from him, no doubt. I guess he doesn't even know what Madrid is...

Thanks Sniper. If you happen to accidentally translate more of the German stuff I'd be happy to read it - don't trust my rusty German skills too much and the mangled Google translations are even less helpful!

I just translated those three titbits in the previous post, which i think were the most important bits of the article. the other stuff was just repeating stuff we already know. but let me know when you need translating.

 

[roundabout]

Ahh, Lombardi. He is still a "talent scout" for team Riis and offers them riders who he manages. Wonder if that's the only thing he does?

 

[JPM London]

I just translated those three titbits in the previous post, which i think were the most important bits of the article. the other stuff was just repeating stuff we already know. but let me know when you need translating.

Thanks - I'd be quite interested to see the stuff JJ had to say originally - also Suddeutsche, wasn't it? I think you (or someone else) posted some bits a day or two ago, but only in the original DE.

By the way - Riis was asked on camera by a very, very nervous journo if he had any comments and Riis actually said:"I've said what I've said - and that's all I'm saying on this". No kidding, Sherlock?

 

[DJ Sprtsch]

A simple white pages search reveils that there still is a Giovanni Lombardi living in Madrid. City centre apartment in Calle Piamonte 14.

 

[screaming fist]

- It also relays the rumour of how certain riders - incl Frank - stopped doing German races because the authorities there had acquired profiles from Puerto and were going to compare to samples collected in German races. PLEASE NOTE: I have not checked to what degree Schleck has ridden in DE or not.

The same has been said about Fränk not riding in Italy... but note that the day CONI took the blood sample that busted Valverde they also took blood of CSC's tour team, so probably Fränk's blood was also checked with the data CONI had of the Puerto blood bags. (Not trying to imply Fränk wasn't working with Fuentes of course)

 

[Frosty]

The same has been said about Fränk not riding in Italy... but note that the day CONI took the blood sample that busted Valverde they also took blood of CSC's tour team, so probably Fränk's blood was also checked with the data CONI had of the Puerto blood bags. (Not trying to imply Fränk wasn't working with Fuentes of course)

http://articles.boston.com/2008-07-...ato-nevoso-bernhard-kohl-moises-duenas-nevado

I thought they had a suspicion which number/code Valverde was - did they have the same for anyone from CSC though - i suppose Amigo de Birillo might have been a clue.

 

[sniper]

Thanks - I'd be quite interested to see the stuff JJ had to say originally - also Suddeutsche, wasn't it? I think you (or someone else) posted some bits a day or two ago, but only in the original DE.

By the way - Riis was asked on camera by a very, very nervous journo if he had any comments and Riis actually said:"I've said what I've said - and that's all I'm saying on this". No kidding, Sherlock?

here in this bachelor thesis you can do some additional name digging:
http://books.google.de/books?id=qRy...VM&hl=de#v=snippet&q=fuentes contador&f=false
(search tool on the left hand side).
most unfortunately is in german again (though also some italian).
i posted a thread with the link, but I'm not at all sure whether it contains new stuff. It does in any case relate the Giovanni Lombardi/Fuentes/Riis/Schleck story, which is how i found it.

Wonder if the author of the thesis posts in here

 

[airstream]

One moment deeply ingrained in my mind. On the day of the start of the 2006 Tour, Eurosport showed a short Tour diary: Ullrich and Basso denying all the things, smiling ridiculously and sitting in cars, a confused Prudhomme, Paco Mancebo with the face sort of saying "guys, you don't get what you are doing". Nothing special, considering the circumstances...Then TV showed CSC boys who came in the lift. They already knew that Basso was suspended and looked very very suppressedly. And only Carlito somehow enigmatically smiling... What could that mean? Perhaps, he just felt his time came! Lombardi abandoned before the Pyrenees, if I recall correctly...

I wonder also why CSC were so relatively weak in the 2007 Tour. Possibly, Riis, who had had to confess in usage of doping a month earlier, decided not to take a risk to load the guys with CERA as Discovery obviously did.

 

[roundabout]

I actually thought that CSC would be weaker in 2007 than they were.

How horribly naive of me.

 

[maltiv]

Yes, but then how did he think he could compete with talented and EPO doped up guys ? Was he that talented? If so why did he collapse completely in 2009 after his sole TDF title? Something's not right here...

I've pointed this out a million times, but people never seem to stop with this argument.

Sastre did not collapse completely after his TDF title...he followed up by being on the podium in the two next GT's he did (Vuelta 2008, Giro 2009 + 2 stages). So he was on the podium for three consecutive GT's...I don't know if anyone else has managed that? Of course, he wasn't himself in the TDF 2009, but come on, that was his 4th grand tour in a row, no one would be able to pull that off. The next year age started catching up with him (8th Giro, 20th TDF, 8th Vuelta), which is only natural for a clean athlete.

When Riis said something like "Sastre doesn't take his training seriously enough and could be a much better rider" one could wonder whether that statement actually was concerning Sastre's denial to take anything.

 

[Ferminal]

I wonder also why CSC were so relatively weak in the 2007 Tour. Possibly, Riis, who had had to confess in usage of doping a month earlier, decided not to take a risk to load the guys with CERA as Discovery obviously did.

Good point. After Andy's Giro, Frank's Tour is a bit underwhelming (or did something else happen to Frank that I'm forgetting).