Ryder's blood

[sniper]

let's not forget JV the antidoping crusader himself only admitted to doping in an August 2012 NY Times article, i.e. only after he knew the whole USPS circus was coming down.

http://road.cc/content/news/63259-jonathan-vaughters-admits-doping-past-insists-he-fighting-clean-future-cycling

 

[Master50]

Re:

I can forgive the doping, but I can't forgive those glasses. Not ever. When he first started wearing them all those years ago, I naturally assumed it was some sort of joke, just to grab publicity. But he keep on wearing them! I think that he thinks that they really look good.

He gats paid to wear them

 

[Master50]

Re: Re:

Honestly out of the big BC pro guys at the time, Ryder was the least impressive. Roland or Svein showed up at a local race you knew it was getting blown apart. They show up at a crit, they're gonna lap the field solo. My main memory of Ryder was him showing up at a race - and he must have been 19 or 20 at the time, so no junior - sitting at the back the whole time, making fun of all the roadies with his MB flunkies and then crashing out half way through the race. The only crash. This is the great Canuck hope?

I was frankly shocked he made it at as Euro pro. I think I almost had a heart attack when he won the Giro.

And he still sits at the back.

Thank you, for bringing some balance.

Crit racing is hardly the demonstration of ability in a 3 week tour. Ryder was racing guys who were brought up on 4 corners and he was all MTB. Put him and Roland on a single track and Ryder was not getting dropped there. By your assessment of their talent Svein should win the tour. but he cannot climb the big mountains where Ryder can.

 

[therhodeo]

Wasn't Tuft the one they said would ride big miles to get to the race, blow the field apart, then ride home?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Honestly out of the big BC pro guys at the time, Ryder was the least impressive. Roland or Svein showed up at a local race you knew it was getting blown apart. They show up at a crit, they're gonna lap the field solo. My main memory of Ryder was him showing up at a race - and he must have been 19 or 20 at the time, so no junior - sitting at the back the whole time, making fun of all the roadies with his MB flunkies and then crashing out half way through the race. The only crash. This is the great Canuck hope?

I was frankly shocked he made it at as Euro pro. I think I almost had a heart attack when he won the Giro.

And he still sits at the back.

Thank you, for bringing some balance.

Crit racing is hardly the demonstration of ability in a 3 week tour. Ryder was racing guys who were brought up on 4 corners and he was all MTB. Put him and Roland on a single track and Ryder was not getting dropped there. By your assessment of their talent Svein should win the tour. but he cannot climb the big mountains where Ryder can.

The primary difference between XC MTB racing and crit racing is pack riding - which he would have done in training, surely? Regardless, Ryder's bike handling would of necessity be good (MTB racing) so I am failing to see the problem there.

Otherwise, as far as my experience goes, XC anaerobic efforts with limited recovery between sweet, sweet single track sections is almost identical to crit racing sprinting out of corners with attacks and counter-attacks interspersed with lulls - from a cardio / physiological POV.

How long are crits in the US? 1 hour + 3 laps is the elite standard here - about the same as a short XC race, which here is somewhere between 1 and 2 hours.

 

[spetsa]

Re:

Really too bad none of you saw how strong he was at 16. He often started 2 to 5 minutes behind the elite racers and beat them too. His time of service to teams with a doping reputation was always short and each time he moved to a lower profile team. He would up at Health net which to me is a clear indication that what ever he was doing it was not playing the same game. He has suffered the criticisms of many he was racing against at home and has lost friends because of it. Call it naive and in this forum counter to the philosophy they are all still doping the change to Vaughters teams was his chance to play on his real talents than get fired for not playing the team game.
In the context of this Giro one team gives me the impression their licence should have been withdrawn. That is about the sheer numbers there for every attack.

You may be this big shot official that you brag about all the time, but you obviously don't know crap about the racing that you officiated. Health Net had the doping game down long before Ryder brought his knowledge learned at Rabobank, Postal and Phonak to them. They were a complete joke, going back to the 7UP days. Only Navigators had a bigger f*ck all attitude when it came to doping.

 

[nayr497]

He seemed kinda likeable until his verbose admission. Now, he just seems a lot like the rest of 'em.

I guess these guys are a lot like white collar financial criminals. They can live with themselves because they're rich and don't dwell on what they had to do to get there.

 

[Master50]

Re: Re:

Really too bad none of you saw how strong he was at 16. He often started 2 to 5 minutes behind the elite racers and beat them too. His time of service to teams with a doping reputation was always short and each time he moved to a lower profile team. He would up at Health net which to me is a clear indication that what ever he was doing it was not playing the same game. He has suffered the criticisms of many he was racing against at home and has lost friends because of it. Call it naive and in this forum counter to the philosophy they are all still doping the change to Vaughters teams was his chance to play on his real talents than get fired for not playing the team game.
In the context of this Giro one team gives me the impression their licence should have been withdrawn. That is about the sheer numbers there for every attack.

You may be this big shot official that you brag about all the time, but you obviously don't know crap about the racing that you officiated. Health Net had the doping game down long before Ryder brought his knowledge learned at Rabobank, Postal and Phonak to them. They were a complete joke, going back to the 7UP days. Only Navigators had a bigger f*ck all attitude when it came to doping.

I am a retired Official and I apologize if I gave you the impression I am a big shot. I never worked a 3 week stage race and the big shots get those races and Olympics. My background is just to point out I see racing from a perspective not generally available to most fans. I see races from the same level as the race and get to see more than what gets on TV. I also watch tv and read the press which is what you get. I have worked the biggest north american races from the meetings to the race report. I see races you never see on tv and spend huge numbers of my vacations and weekends at bike races from cat 4 to world champs. I really hope to provide perspective and I agree I am not clairvoyant. what are your credentials beside cynicism? There is no proof in calling me names nor is there any proof in reminding us that navigators or Health net had dopers on their teams. so do our local masters teams. I can appreciate your cynicism as the sport has been so distorted. Much of my position is founded on what I see and I saw a change. I saw riders failing and winning at human levels very unlike what we saw in 2000 where extraordinary riders were barely keeping up. I do not think for a second that doping has stopped but it has changed a lot. that is all I believe. I saw Ryder match a soon to be world champion in a high profile MTB race when he was 16. I saw him start as a junior 2 minutes behind the elite mens race and finish 2 minutes behind the Elite winner, Roland Green. Roland had some pretty impressive results by then and by any measure Ryder was extraordinary. in a flat world this was indication of world class talent. Slagging me does nothing to prove anything you think you know. I have an opinion that does not match yours based on my witness and experience.

 

[Benotti69]

Doping was like a handbrake on to Ryder. When he stopped doping he was faster than ever....................yeah tell Santa Claus!

 

[sniper]

Re:

Doping was like a handbrake on to Ryder. When he stopped doping he was faster than ever....................yeah tell Santa Claus!

the physical boosts, but also the mental boosts, the euphoria that comes with the increased performance ability, ect.
imo it's beyond ridiculous to even entertain the thought of Ryder having ever stopped doping.
i could think of a tons of reasons why somebody would never start doping, i could even imagine riders having doped, getting caught, and then trying to come back clean(ish).
but i couldn't think of one reason why Ryder would have stopped, owing his carreer, his wealth, to doping.
not even Santa will buy into this one.

 

[blackcat]

Santa uses bitcoin binary and algorithm for purchases.

 

[sniper]

Re:

Santa uses bitcoin binary and algorithm for purchases.

doesn't he come through the chimney no more?

just found this snippet from the 2014 Di Luca interview.
It struck me as particularly insightful and truthful:
"The thing I regret is being caught," Di Luca said. "I made a mistake with the timing. It's just a matter of hours. Perhaps five hours before or five hours after, and I wouldn't have tested positive."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/di-luca-i-didnt-get-paid-for-the-interview

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

I am a retired Official and I apologize if I gave you the impression I am a big shot. I never worked a 3 week stage race and the big shots get those races and Olympics. My background is just to point out I see racing from a perspective not generally available to most fans. I see races from the same level as the race and get to see more than what gets on TV. I also watch tv and read the press which is what you get. I have worked the biggest north american races from the meetings to the race report. I see races you never see on tv and spend huge numbers of my vacations and weekends at bike races from cat 4 to world champs. I really hope to provide perspective and I agree I am not clairvoyant. what are your credentials beside cynicism? There is no proof in calling me names nor is there any proof in reminding us that navigators or Health net had dopers on their teams. so do our local masters teams. I can appreciate your cynicism as the sport has been so distorted. Much of my position is founded on what I see and I saw a change. I saw riders failing and winning at human levels very unlike what we saw in 2000 where extraordinary riders were barely keeping up. I do not think for a second that doping has stopped but it has changed a lot. that is all I believe. I saw Ryder match a soon to be world champion in a high profile MTB race when he was 16. I saw him start as a junior 2 minutes behind the elite mens race and finish 2 minutes behind the Elite winner, Roland Green. Roland had some pretty impressive results by then and by any measure Ryder was extraordinary. in a flat world this was indication of world class talent. Slagging me does nothing to prove anything you think you know. I have an opinion that does not match yours based on my witness and experience.

Though I agree with Spetsa on doping at Navigators and Healthnet (because it was well-known to everyone), your objective perspective on Ryder has always been useful. And continues to present us with a puzzle or two.

It is puzzling in the sense that we know he doped. But, we don't know when he started, if he truly stopped, or if he re-started one or more times after stopping. And, as with others, we have no meaningful method of assessing any long-term benefits. Thus, which results were clean, and which weren't? How big a talent is/was he?

On the long term, though, crossing the line clearly taints one as a doper forever.

With due respect to hulkgogan's insights, Ryder wasn't a complete flake locally. There were some pretty impressive TT results at Nationals, for example, and it appeared to take a whole team to dispatch and neutralize the lone ryder (sic) in the RR more than once. But, he was probably an active doper at that time, which could help explain the results and extra attention.

Doping or not, there was rumor of a clean Canadian squad trying to land him, though, after he parted with Disco. And, at a point that rumor of his doping was likely in circulation.

So, lots and lots of puzzles with Ryder.

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

I dont see any puzzles. Guy dopes. It only came out after another doper outed him that he doped. Ryder had no intention of admitting and if not for Rasmussen he would still be lying to everyone about his past. He never tested positive, knows how with JVs internal testing how to beat the system and has won a GT against Ferrari doped teams. It aint no puzzle. JV's BS about 'machine calibration errors' just abut funny as Armstrong's "we like our credibilty".

 

[D-Queued]

Re:

I dont see any puzzles. Guy dopes. It only came out after another doper outed him that he doped. Ryder had no intention of admitting and if not for Rasmussen he would still be lying to everyone about his past. He never tested positive, knows how with JVs internal testing how to beat the system and has won a GT against Ferrari doped teams. It aint no puzzle. JV's BS about 'machine calibration errors' just abut funny as Armstrong's "we like our credibilty".

Fair enough.

It's an iceberg, though. Lots more under the surface, though perhaps not of similarly broad interest.

Dave.

 

[sniper]

found this bit from Tilford. Although it's with specific regards to Bobby Julich, it nicely illustrates why imo you must be completely ignorant of the effects of doping to give any sort of credence to vaughters and hesjedal:

What’s really bothering me now about the whole thing is the extent that these guys will go to protect their legacies. “I did it until 2006 and then it suddenly became too much to handle morally.” Huh? Can you imagine training and racing supercharged for years and then go back to racing normally aspirated? I’m guessing it would feel something like you had the flu 365 days a year training.. Plus, you would have no mental capacity to race one bit. It seems like it isn’t in human nature to allow it to work.

http://stevetilford.com/2012/10/26/another-i-smoked-pot-but-didnt-inhale-confession-by-bobby-julich-2/

 

[hulkgogan]

Re: Re:

Honestly out of the big BC pro guys at the time, Ryder was the least impressive. Roland or Svein showed up at a local race you knew it was getting blown apart. They show up at a crit, they're gonna lap the field solo. My main memory of Ryder was him showing up at a race - and he must have been 19 or 20 at the time, so no junior - sitting at the back the whole time, making fun of all the roadies with his MB flunkies and then crashing out half way through the race. The only crash. This is the great Canuck hope?

I was frankly shocked he made it at as Euro pro. I think I almost had a heart attack when he won the Giro.

And he still sits at the back.

Thank you, for bringing some balance.

Crit racing is hardly the demonstration of ability in a 3 week tour. Ryder was racing guys who were brought up on 4 corners and he was all MTB. Put him and Roland on a single track and Ryder was not getting dropped there. By your assessment of their talent Svein should win the tour. but he cannot climb the big mountains where Ryder can.

The primary difference between XC MTB racing and crit racing is pack riding - which he would have done in training, surely? Regardless, Ryder's bike handling would of necessity be good (MTB racing) so I am failing to see the problem there.

Otherwise, as far as my experience goes, XC anaerobic efforts with limited recovery between sweet, sweet single track sections is almost identical to crit racing sprinting out of corners with attacks and counter-attacks interspersed with lulls - from a cardio / physiological POV.

How long are crits in the US? 1 hour + 3 laps is the elite standard here - about the same as a short XC race, which here is somewhere between 1 and 2 hours.

It was actually a road race and hardly Ryder's first. And him and Roland were both doing similar training but Roland could ride guys off his wheel on the road. Ryder not so much.

Speaking of Svein, you're absolutely right. We all thought he was unbelievably talented and if any Canadian was gonna be a Euro star, it was Svein. His ability was so mind blowing it actually made me more or less quit bike racing. Svein and I raced for the same outfit and got tested at the same time. His VO2 max was 86 when he'd been in the sport about 9 months. Huge engine. But clean then and I suspect maybe still and that's why he never became a star in my opinion. Unlike Ryder.

Also, somehow Ryder seemed to get so many chances in Europe. Wasn't it like 8 years before he won a race? He never seems to have to ride for anyone and kept getting contracts. Never understood that. I'm not anti-Ryder, though I'm coming across as that, I just never saw the talent out on the road, even though his MB rep was huge. Obviously he can ride a bike. Drugs help too.

 

[D-Queued]

Ryder Hesjedal signs for Trek Factory Racing

Does this signal the end of this thread?

Dave.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

Re: Re:

Doping was like a handbrake on to Ryder. When he stopped doping he was faster than ever....................yeah tell Santa Claus!

This is correct. Cycling is way faster when its clean. The dope dulls all of there senses and deprives the body of badly needed oxygen. Thank God Ryder did that Giro clean.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

And, if someone says he didnt: it was due to a machine calibration error. People dont understand AWESOMENESS.

Or: tailwind on Pampeago.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Ryder Hesjedal signs for Trek Factory Racing

Does this signal the end of this thread?

Dave.

Depends if JV can get Tygart to target test Ryder on Hawaii..........

 

[blackcat]

Re:

Ryder Hesjedal signs for Trek Factory Racing

Does this signal the end of this thread?

Dave.

Are Trek Factory Racing a NASCAR team? I never knew Ryder was a driver. His parents got the wrong eponymous christening. should have named him driver.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

You may be this big shot official that you brag about all the time, but you obviously don't know crap about the racing that you officiated. Health Net had the doping game down long before Ryder brought his knowledge learned at Rabobank, Postal and Phonak to them. They were a complete joke, going back to the 7UP days. Only Navigators had a bigger f*ck all attitude when it came to doping.

Toyota passed up Health Net in the later years.

Speaking of Svein, you're absolutely right. We all thought he was unbelievably talented and if any Canadian was gonna be a Euro star, it was Svein. His ability was so mind blowing it actually made me more or less quit bike racing. Svein and I raced for the same outfit and got tested at the same time. His VO2 max was 86 when he'd been in the sport about 9 months. Huge engine. But clean then and I suspect maybe still and that's why he never became a star in my opinion. Unlike Ryder.

Svein is a monster and seems like a totally good dude but I dont think too many really expected him to be a star in Europe. Never had the top-end, too big to climb. Farrar could get him in a sprint when he was still a kid. His career has played out pretty much exactly like one would expect: dom in the classics, tt motor, competitive in the summer belgian races. Now he's pretty much a TTT specialist.

 

[momotaro]

Re: Re:

You may be this big shot official that you brag about all the time, but you obviously don't know crap about the racing that you officiated. Health Net had the doping game down long before Ryder brought his knowledge learned at Rabobank, Postal and Phonak to them. They were a complete joke, going back to the 7UP days. Only Navigators had a bigger f*ck all attitude when it came to doping.

Toyota passed up Health Net in the later years.

Speaking of Svein, you're absolutely right. We all thought he was unbelievably talented and if any Canadian was gonna be a Euro star, it was Svein. His ability was so mind blowing it actually made me more or less quit bike racing. Svein and I raced for the same outfit and got tested at the same time. His VO2 max was 86 when he'd been in the sport about 9 months. Huge engine. But clean then and I suspect maybe still and that's why he never became a star in my opinion. Unlike Ryder.

Svein is a monster and seems like a totally good dude but I dont think too many really expected him to be a star in Europe. Never had the top-end, too big to climb. Farrar could get him in a sprint when he was still a kid. His career has played out pretty much exactly like one would expect: dom in the classics, tt motor, competitive in the summer belgian races. Now he's pretty much a TTT specialist.

Just seconding he opinions of hulkgogan and izzy.

1) Ryder never impressive locally
2) Only Canadian WT or conti-pros that I ever went "WTF" was Rollie and Svein. All the other guys were fast but not crazy.
3) Fararar when he was still local: wheel suck and then he gets you in the sprint.
4) Svein motors at 50kph for hours, but his sprint tops out a about 57kph, lol. Regardless, I thought he might of had a chance at Paris Roubaix in his prime if is was cold, raining, and windy.

 

[D-Queued]

Re: Re:

...

Just seconding he opinions of hulkgogan and izzy.

1) Ryder never impressive locally
2) Only Canadian WT or conti-pros that I ever went "WTF" was Rollie and Svein. All the other guys were fast but not crazy.
3) Fararar when he was still local: wheel suck and then he gets you in the sprint.
4) Svein motors at 50kph for hours, but his sprint tops out a about 57kph, lol. Regardless, I thought he might of had a chance at Paris Roubaix in his prime if is was cold, raining, and windy.

This segue likely belongs in another forum, but...

Short list.

Is this era specific?

No Bauer on the short list?

Not to mention just a few others, even locally and even in roughly the same era as Svein & Rolli, that had lots of folks going 'wtf'. But, perhaps it depends how you are applying the 'wtf'.

A discussion of Sven's sprint brings up a vignette from the '04 Nationals.

Gord & Svein were off the front. Someone waiting on the line says "Not a chance". There wasn't.

Was that Gord's only appearance at Nationals?

And, back to Ryder since we are in the clinic and this thread is about his blood.

As good as Svein was at the TT - with some now suggesting that he is only a TT specialist - and as much as some are criticizing Ryder, suggesting he didn't show well, didn't Ryder beat Svein at Nationals in '07?

That win not really out of nowhere given that Ryder just missed out in '06 and was a respectable 3rd in '05 behind Svein and 8-timer Wohlberg during his first year as a Roadie, or is my memory foggy on that?

Rolli, on the other hand, only ever managed a 3rd in the Nationals TT.

But, then again, Ryder only managed 16th at Beijing, a minute down on Svein in 7th, and just behind some lightweight italian named nibali.

Dave.