Ryder's blood

[twothirds]

Yes, but you would expect a linear drop and not like in Ryder's case, where there is sudden drop in first week and then it remains the same throughout the Giro.

The drop may not be linear because once you get into a depleted state, you can't push yourself hard enough to further deplete yourself. A pattern like this is normal in a body where everything is functioning as it should. A parameter changes and then normalizes.

 

[zlev11]

so he won a GT with a 43 hct and people still think he's doping? really?

 

[Cloxxki]

so he won a GT with a 43 hct and people still think he's doping? really?

It's not that hard to save up a bag of blood and stuff it into your body when you need it most. Hct will not be affected, but you'll have ~10% more red blood cells (1 pint bag). And that's the very most basic form of blood doping.
The 50% rule got riders to top off with borrowed or saved blood. Lower Hct, same effect on performance from a doped amount of red blood cells.

 

[Ferminal]

so he won a GT with a 43 hct and people still think he's doping? really?

Because haemocrit is a reliable indicator of PED use?

 

[131313]

so he won a GT with a 43 hct and people still think he's doping? really?

It's not 1996...

I'm not saying he's doping or not doping, but you realize that every single doped up athlete since the late nineties was winning with similar hct numbers? That means very, very little, for a variety of reasons.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Because haemocrit is a reliable indicator of PED use?

Bingo! Look at the chart titled "Lagos de Covadonga" If the peloton is not doping, we'd see a return to a range close to the 80's values.

The stair-stepping declining values also tell me the UCI is at least telling teams to gear-down, but not too much because we need the racing to be more spectacular than the 80's.

 

[egtalbot]

The stair-stepping declining values also tell me the UCI is at least telling teams to gear-down, but not too much because we need the racing to be more spectacular than the 80's.

Yep. By definition the blood passport accomplishes this. It has the side effect of reducing the number of positives also. I don't think these are bad things, but they merely change the nature or the doping, not eliminate it.

As for Ryder, I don't necessarily think that a plateau in these values in the second half of a GT is inconsistent with being dope-free. That said, the current system allows one to microdose without much fear of getting caught. Which means it is occurring. I wouldn't want to put money on someone winning a grant tour without doing it, though I guess it's more possible than it was a decade ago.

In any case, I appreciate JV providing the numbers.

 

[Willy_Voet]

Hct will not be affected, but you'll have ~10% more red blood cells (1 pint bag).

How does that work again?

 

[hrotha]

How does that work again?

By having a larger amount of blood in your body.

 

[sniper]

Yep. By definition the blood passport accomplishes this. It has the side effect of reducing the number of positives also. I don't think these are bad things, but they merely change the nature or the doping, not eliminate it.

As for Ryder, I don't necessarily think that a plateau in these values in the second half of a GT is inconsistent with being dope-free. That said, the current system allows one to microdose without much fear of getting caught. Which means it is occurring. I wouldn't want to put money on someone winning a grant tour without doing it, though I guess it's more possible than it was a decade ago.

In any case, I appreciate JV providing the numbers.

there. the bold face. +1
the whole claim of cleaner cycling is based solely on the bloodpassport. in the meantime, new PEDs come on the market on a daily friggin basis. and just look at what the pharmaceutical industry has invested in cycling. tells you everything you need to know.

and what do these hematocrit values mean anyway? for all we know, cycling doctors have been developing some PED that helps you sink your hematocrit down to credible levels quickly before you are tested.
or perhaps I should rephrase that into a serious question: does anyone think it is theoretically possible that cycling doctors have been developing some PED that helps you sink your hematocrit down to credible levels quickly before you are tested?

 

[hrotha]

You don't need any fancy drugs for that - saline drips have been used since the 90s. Combining microdosing and EPO will get you pretty stable blood values anyway.

The "cycling is cleaner" mantra doesn't come so much from the biological passport as from the wattage numbers, and those do indicate... well, not necessarily a cleaner sport, but a less enhanced one. It's not clear however how it compares to the mid 00s.

 

[sniper]

You don't need any fancy drugs for that - saline drips have been used since the 90s. Combining microdosing and EPO will get you pretty stable blood values anyway.

The "cycling is cleaner" mantra doesn't come so much from the biological passport as from the wattage numbers, and those do indicate... well, not necessarily a cleaner sport, but a less enhanced one. It's not clear however how it compares to the mid 00s.

true, you're right of course. (i was a bit too quick in posting that)
but then the wattage calculations seem so complicated that clinicians do not seem to be able to reach any sort of consensus on how to interpret those values. but granted, the doping is probably less rampant than in the 90s/2000s.

 

[mastersracer]

there. the bold face. +1
the whole claim of cleaner cycling is based solely on the bloodpassport. in the meantime, new PEDs come on the market on a daily friggin basis. and just look at what the pharmaceutical industry has invested in cycling. tells you everything you need to know.

and what do these hematocrit values mean anyway? for all we know, cycling doctors have been developing some PED that helps you sink your hematocrit down to credible levels quickly before you are tested.
or perhaps I should rephrase that into a serious question: does anyone think it is theoretically possible that cycling doctors have been developing some PED that helps you sink your hematocrit down to credible levels quickly before you are tested?

Big pharma is not involved in cycling because of some financial interest in PEDS. No cycling doctor is developing PEDs. One thing Hamilton's book reinforced was how rudimentary doping is - 'off-label' use of drugs, etc.

 

[sniper]

Big pharma is not involved in cycling because of some financial interest in PEDS. No cycling doctor is developing PEDs. One thing Hamilton's book reinforced was how rudimentary doping is - 'off-label' use of drugs, etc.

interesting point. but hasn't the off-label drug use (partly as a result of the introduction of the passport) been substituted by subtle bandwidth-microdoping and PED-masking, the success of which is dependent on the expertise of (team)docs and physiologists?

 

[Alpechraxler]

how is it possible that his hemoglobin and hematocrit levels didn't drop in the last 2 weeks of the Giro

I would suppose the body just reached it's lower steadystate of production and loss so it stays at 14.xx

 

[Willy_Voet]

By having a larger amount of blood in your body.

And your body doesn't notice the extra 16 oz of fluid in circulation? Le Chatelier must be rolling over in his grave.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

hrotha, Cloxxi, I think what Willie_Voet is trying to say here is that if you have a transfusion, your body rapidly adjust the blood volume back towards normal. Plasma is shifted out of the blood stream and your hematocrit and haemoglobin concentration will go up.

That is why plasma is needed before a blood test, for masking purposes.

Reading this thread, I think some are underestimating the natural variability in some of those data. Retics in particular are quite noisy IIRC? At least Ryder's blood values compare favorably with some of the others we've seen. No sign he was slammin the BBs during the Giro.

 

[Cloxxki]

hrotha, Cloxxi, I think what Willie_Voet is trying to say here is that if you have a transfusion, your body rapidly adjust the blood volume back towards normal. Plasma is shifted out of the blood stream and your hematocrit and haemoglobin concentration will go up.

That is why plasma is needed before a blood test, for masking purposes.

Reading this thread, I think some are underestimating the natural variability in some of those data. Retics in particular are quite noisy IIRC? At least Ryder's blood values compare favorably with some of the others we've seen. No sign he was slammin the BBs during the Giro.

I see. But what about a really hard multi-day race (some people seem to be into those), would that not even the hct increase out to a certain extent?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I see. But what about a really hard multi-day race (some people seem to be into those), would that not even the hct increase out to a certain extent?

Yes. Plasma expansion durung a multi day/week race could even out the hct increase. That's why a normal bold profile during a GT has hct trending downwards. A decline of around 11% is average, athough the measured decrease varies significantly from one person to another.

Ryder's values are stable for the later part of the race but I don't think that gives us armchair observers any information. I looked through a number of papers with data on plasma volume changes due to altitude exposure or extreme exercise. The differences between athletes, not only in the amount of volume change, but also to timing of that change was striking. So, from the scant information I have, I don't find it suspicious that Ryder's blood volume seems to have adjusted quite quickly.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

so he won a GT with a 43 hct and people still think he's doping? really?

That's high in the 3rd week of a GT, but expected based on his high values at the start of the race, which may or may not be dodgy. Did you miss the discussion about how Hb and Hct behave during a GT? ~10% decline.

It's not 1996...

I'm not saying he's doping or not doping, but you realize that every single doped up athlete since the late nineties was winning with similar hct numbers? That means very, very little, for a variety of reasons.

Doubt it. Remember Del Moral telling JV the entire USPS train was close to 50%? Landis, Levi and Hamilton also had borderline hct's post-USPS.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

hrotha, Cloxxi, I think what Willie_Voet is trying to say here is that if you have a transfusion, your body rapidly adjust the blood volume back towards normal. Plasma is shifted out of the blood stream and your hematocrit and haemoglobin concentration will go up.

That is why plasma is needed before a blood test, for masking purposes.

Reading this thread, I think some are underestimating the natural variability in some of those data. Retics in particular are quite noisy IIRC? At least Ryder's blood values compare favorably with some of the others we've seen. No sign he was slammin the BBs during the Giro.

Some other GT-profiles:

Basso @ Giro 2010

43% and 13.9g/dl -> 38.7% and 12.9g/dl

Lance @ Giro 2009

43.5 and 14.8 -> 38.2 and 13.0

Lance @ TdF 2009

42.8 and 14.3 -> 43 and 14.5

Floyd @ TdF 2006

44.8 and 15.5. -> 48.2 and 16.1

Rasmussen @ TdF 2007

40.3 and 13.3 -> 43.9 and 14.4

 

[vander]

These numbers for all pros seem pretty low to me my blood test results say HCT should be between 40-55% and Heamoglobin between 13 - 18 is there something that I am missing here as to why they are the lower end of the scale? Even Wiki says normal HCT is 45%.

Should I be happy I am 49% and 16.7? (although this is only from 1 test from when I was sick)

 

[henryg]

These numbers for all pros seem pretty low to me my blood test results say HCT should be between 40-55% and Heamoglobin between 13 - 18 is there something that I am missing here as to why they are the lower end of the scale? Even Wiki says normal HCT is 45%.

Should I be happy I am 49% and 16.7? (although this is only from 1 test from when I was sick)

I'm curious about this. All other things being equal would an athlete with a natural HCT of 48 have an advantage over an athlete with an HCT of 40 in an endurance event sans blood doping?

 

[Benotti69]

These numbers for all pros seem pretty low to me my blood test results say HCT should be between 40-55% and Heamoglobin between 13 - 18 is there something that I am missing here as to why they are the lower end of the scale? Even Wiki says normal HCT is 45%.

Should I be happy I am 49% and 16.7? (although this is only from 1 test from when I was sick)

I doubt that figure. 30-45% maybe, but 55% is not normal, otherwise cyclists would have been allowed a HCT of 55%.

Armstrong was 38% when normal iirc. Ullrich was 42% normal.

 

[Scatto]

Yes of course