Ryder's blood

[Master50]

as a former Hesjedal believer I have to say i'm definitely starting to doubt that 2012 performance. to be faster paniagua than those insane dopers of 2008 is just inconceivable to me, no matter how slow the rest of the stages were. we KNOW those guys in 2008 were on CERA, and looking back to the '12 Giro i was rooting big time for Hesjedal but it definitely seemed a little too good to be true, he never really showed the ability to WIN a grand tour before that and he completely stomped everyone on the Cervinia stage and then on the Pampeago stage. it just didn't seem right, even if the level of that Giro was not particularly high, and now those times show that not to be the case anyway. i really hope he was clean for that Giro win, he seems like a decent guy and i'm still a fan of his, but it doesn't look great at the moment.

Previous he managed 5th in the Tour. My memory of the 2012 Giro did not have Ryder completely stomp on anyone at the Cervinia. As I recall he did a lot of keeping up to the pace and several stages he defintely reached very deep trying to keep up to the other protagonists.

Ryder did a lot that race he normally forgets. he paid a lot of attention to his position. He is often at the back and likes to sit there a lot. He has incredible ability to ride at a very high output but he is not as good at changing his tempo so events like his recent tour of Spain stage win is more his ability. he got attacked and ground the Tinkoff rider down to win the stage. Ryder has the engine but he lets tactical things slide often such that luck plays a larger role than say Contador who has the capacity to command the front That Giro win was not in my mind a fluke of unexpressed talent but a complete set of things going right for him. It was one of those races Ryder made few if any mistakes.

It is also very hard to compare talent. I know several riders that have ridden up Haleakela in Maui. Guys who at home are outstanding climbers go to maui and find they take twice as long to climb that mountain. Actually it is in the longest climbs his ability starts to win over. he maintains that same pace far longer than most. Sure some guys can accelerate in the last KM to drop him but most are dropped before this. This is what won him that Giro. I think the revelations of his past Doping also disturbed his plan such that he made a lot of tactical errors in 2013 related to his mindset. He went to the 2012 Giro prepared to win and that is why he did. I just hope it was not also the peak of his talent and that he might still have another couple of peak years. I suspect his recent support of Dan Martin is an indication he is having fewer days in a row of that hight output in that he needs more days of recovery between big days.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

2010 Tour
Final general classification
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 91:58:48
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:39
3 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0:02:01
4 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:40
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:06:54
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:09:31
7 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:10:15
8 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Team Katusha 0:11:37
9 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas-Doimo 0:11:54
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 0:12:02
11 Luis León Sánchez Gil (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:21
12 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:29
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Team Radioshack 0:14:40

 

[sniper]

2010 Tour
Final general classification
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 91:58:48
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:39
3 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0:02:01
4 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:40
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:06:54
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:09:31
7 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:10:15
8 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Team Katusha 0:11:37
9 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas-Doimo 0:11:54
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 0:12:02
11 Luis León Sánchez Gil (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:21
12 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:29
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Team Radioshack 0:14:40

reassuring to hear Hesjedal complain about the dopers who kept him from the podium that year.

 

[Ferminal]

I wonder what the comparison is for the times from Tesero to the Pampeago/Lavaze fork?

I think Giau was another sorta comparable climb, and they didn't really fly there

Everyone was still **** scared of the diesel and his slowtrain at that stage

 

[Ferminal]

Some more blurb from 2008, including a Garmin team average:



That average means the range of values is .6 to 1.3. Ryder was a member of that team.

Someone better than me at stats can hopefully explain what 0.95 +/- 0.35 means, because an average back then of 1.6 sits outside that range of values, and I am sure Ryder's Hct has not increased since 2008, surely?

Yeh Ryder cops a bit too much heat relative to the others.

Vande Velde 2008 is completely off the charts. Never produced anything like it before (even with Schumi...) and nothing since (2009 was ok). His climbing was believable when you consider how outrageous the TT'ing was, **** me, a minute down on Schumacher and 44" on Cancellara from someone who had never done a good TT in his life before that year. Post-2009 he gives most of it away and only "peaks" in the comfort of North America.

Millar who in 2009 was climbing as well as he ever had as a doper, 11th on Ventoux! He keeps his TT'ing form, often being up for consideration as the "next best" after the big two. All the while prattling on about all the great things he's done since stopping doping. Pity he didn't actually "stop" until 2012 or thereabouts and look at his fantastic results since.

Let's not let Zabriskie and his US doping only policy get away either, absolutely horrific climbing on the continent but more than willing to turn up prepared on home turf. Again, climbed better than when he was a doper (well, a USPS doper, he was clean at Riis wasn't he?).

It says buckets that Tommy ****ing D is the most legit of the lot.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The others have not won a GT in this new, clean era, proclaiming to be a better rider off the dope than on.

Well. The first point at any rate.

That's a big point. Elephant size, even.

 

[Master50]

2010 Tour
Final general classification
1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 91:58:48
2 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team Saxo Bank 0:00:39
3 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0:02:01
4 Samuel Sánchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi 0:03:40
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0:06:54
6 Robert Gesink (Ned) Rabobank 0:09:31
7 Ryder Hesjedal (Can) Garmin - Transitions 0:10:15
8 Joaquin Rodriguez (Spa) Team Katusha 0:11:37
9 Roman Kreuziger (Cze) Liquigas-Doimo 0:11:54
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 0:12:02
11 Luis León Sánchez Gil (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:21
12 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spa) Caisse d'Epargne 0:14:29
13 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Team Radioshack 0:14:40

This race was reclassified and Ryder officially is 5th. Contador and Menchov are out. Post the official finish order.
Edit: checked letour website and they list both Armstrong and Menchov as DQ'd. the results show Contador but the heading says Armstrong

 

[westerner]

Don't forget... Menchov another DQ'ed from that 2010 TDF classification. Two gone from the top 3. I'm a bit confused, 2010 is in the new era of 'clean cycling', correct?

 

[thehog]

And the maestro...
Horner 2013:

with context:

From Slipstream for comparison

Landis:

 

[Master50]

Don't forget... Menchov another DQ'ed from that 2010 TDF classification. Two gone from the top 3. I'm a bit confused, 2010 is in the new era of 'clean cycling', correct?

I edited my post to reflect Menchov's DQ.
Era of cleaning up

 

[blackcat]

Hog, Millar and VdV awfully low retics for that debut TdF in 2008 when they were getting target tested. Seems quite an indictment on that new clean team.

Hey Dear Wiggo, those retics for the Tour OFF THE CHART

and the most eggregious, Millar taking shots at Saunier Duval. wutta hypocrite

From Slipstream for comparison

Landis:

 

[thehog]

Hog, Millar and VdV awfully low retics for that debut TdF in 2008 when they were getting target tested. Seems quite an indictment on that new clean team.

Hey Dear Wiggo, those retics for the Tour OFF THE CHART

and the most eggregious, Millar taking shots at Saunier Duval. wutta hypocrite

Yep, those guys were still dabbling in the black arts. Probably much like Wiggins. Nice little "jump" after the 2nd rest day.

 

[Ferminal]

Hog, Millar and VdV awfully low retics for that debut TdF in 2008 when they were getting target tested. Seems quite an indictment on that new clean team.

Hey Dear Wiggo, those retics for the Tour OFF THE CHART

and the most eggregious, Millar taking shots at Saunier Duval. wutta hypocrite

One sample in a GT isn't really helpful.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

One sample in a GT isn't really helpful.

When his average or the year is 1.2 and his preseason high is 1.8, 0.4 does look dodgy despite the single sample.

 

[Ferminal]

Could be natural suppression due to GT exertion, or something.

I guess when you combine it with the Hgb which is almost 2 st. devs above the average and highest measure of the season, conveniently after the first rest day. Good bag.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Could be natural suppression due to GT exertion, or something.

I guess when you combine it with the Hgb which is almost 2 st. devs above the average and highest measure of the season, conveniently after the first rest day. Good bag.

Sorry yes. His Hgb pattern basically increased for the entire year, including all throughout that GT. The graph is burnt into my brain for all eternity.

JV called it decompensation (?) or basically said Millar was not a good GT rider and did not recover during them. When I pointed out Millar was not only winning or podiuming GT final stage TTs but also riding and finishing all three in the same year, JV blocked me from Twitter. Something about having already made my mind up.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Eg:
Giro 2008 13th final TT
TdF 2008 4th final TT

DNF Giro
TdF 2009 5th final TT
Vuelta 2009 1st final TT

Yeah my bad maybe he wasn't finishing all 3 GTs in a year - and maybe I challenged JV as to why he was putting a non-GT rider into every single GT of the year so yeah maybe that's why he blocked me.

 

[blackcat]

Eg:
Giro 2008 13th final TT
TdF 2008 4th final TT

DNF Giro
TdF 2009 5th final TT
Vuelta 2009 1st final TT

Yeah my bad maybe he wasn't finishing all 3 GTs in a year - and maybe I challenged JV as to why he was putting a non-GT rider into every single GT of the year so yeah maybe that's why he blocked me.

he blocked you?

JV was just going hell for leather with his A-Team. Funny when I mentioned his A-team on here, and I got pilloried for it.

 

[thehog]

he blocked you?

JV was just going hell for leather with his A-Team. Funny when I mentioned his A-team on here, and I got pilloried for it.

Nothing like a bit Chiense styled censorship.

Generally in science it is encouraged that questions are asked. In cycling you get blocked.

 

[Benotti69]

This race was reclassified and Ryder officially is 5th. Contador and Menchov are out. Post the official finish order.
Edit: checked letour website and they list both Armstrong and Menchov as DQ'd. the results show Contador but the heading says Armstrong

So how did a 'clean' Hesjedal beat dopers like Kreuziger, Jrod, Horner, Sanchez, Leipheimer?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Maybe it is Dopers Fatigue? Hoggy has mentioned it before. It is quite scientific and certainly not just something he made up. Perhaps he studied it while he was at Cambridge University?

 

[thehog]

Maybe it is Dopers Fatigue? Hoggy has mentioned it before. It is quite scientific and certainly not just something he made up. Perhaps he studied it while he was at Cambridge University?

My understanding is Vaughters didn't check the index of the Walsh book for the term "zig zag". It caused outage amougst the Sky fans that he story wasn't located on the first passing. Especially to those whom have given up on their home country for another.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

My understanding is Vaughters didn't check the index of the Walsh book for the term "zig zag". It caused outage amougst the Sky fans that he story wasn't located on the first passing. Especially to those whom have given up on their home country for another.

I think it was more that he lied about it not being in the book even though he had not read it?

Then there was that whole thing about who paid for the legal defence. Still the guy admitted he was wrong in the end and wrote a big apology. Bless.

 

[thehog]

Sorry yes. His Hgb pattern basically increased for the entire year, including all throughout that GT. The graph is burnt into my brain for all eternity.

JV called it decompensation (?) or basically said Millar was not a good GT rider and did not recover during them. When I pointed out Millar was not only winning or podiuming GT final stage TTs but also riding and finishing all three in the same year, JV blocked me from Twitter. Something about having already made my mind up.

I do remember the "decompensation" statment. There's always something. Funny how they worry about the pseudo scientists misjudging the data but then just make up ill fitting terms to explain performances. Crazy adaptive physiology etc.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Surely JV's ability to make up excuses on the fly is an example of crazy adaptive parapsychology?