Ryders crash -motor?

[Dear Wiggo]

Russian scientists, patented technology, brushless, silent hub motor. Angel funding in the 10s of millions.

Gone in 18months (RIP 2005).

http://www.electricbike.com/tidal-force/

The motors look like they were overselling and underdelivering, however a silent hub motor is exactly what would work here.

 

[Granville57]

Is a new thread is in order?

Quite possibly

Is the winner's bike normally inspected? Can this be confirmed / proven by somebody? While not at all conclusive, this would be an interesting development. At the very least, it would *suggest* that contador's bike was not up to code.

What is suggests to me—and this is rather disconcerting, truth be told—is that the people supposedly running the show are being led around by a bunch of morons like us.

Seriously. The entire issue of mechanical doping seems to be almost exclusively driven by the public, or at least a few intrepid individuals with no connection to the powers that be.

We had the accusations against Cancellara that would seem to be directly responsible for the UCI's decision to x-ray frames. Now we have Ryder's "motor-gate," and the issues that were stirred in places like The Clinic and elsewhere have been picked up by major cycling media and thrust to the forefront.

Would they even be inspecting bikes at all at the Vuelta were it not for motor-gate? (Not a rhetorical question)

Had that video not attracted all the attention that it did, would anyone from the UCI or Vuelta organizers EVER made mention of it on their own? NO.

So it does appear, in the case of mechanical doping, that the inmates truly are running the asylum.

 

[MarkvW]

Russian scientists, patented technology, brushless, silent hub motor. Angel funding in the 10s of millions.

Gone in 18months (RIP 2005).

http://www.electricbike.com/tidal-force/

The motors look like they were overselling and underdelivering, however a silent hub motor is exactly what would work here.

Ryder has apparently found an ingenious way to hide the batteries.

 

[Granville57]

http://www.electricbike.com/tidal-force/

Some very interesting info on the site, especially some of the historically data.

I saw that Specialized contraption at my LBS just last week. I really didn't give it much attention though. Maybe it's just me, but I really don't understand what the market is for those things.

And after reading that review.

The path these 30 bikes took on a test-ride was 10 miles. It was a blazing fast ride with a former Tour De France rider setting the pace, and a lot of bicycle industry people keeping up. All bikes were in the highest setting “turbo” throughout the ride. The path we took was moderately hilly.

On this ride my bike used 51% of its battery on the 10 mile circuit. Out of the 30 riders, three ran out of juice before reaching the end, and had to pedal the rest of the way. This is real world ebike range. You will be lucky to get 20 miles out of a small battery pack like this, if you want to run in the “turbo” mode.

If you really milk it, you could maybe get a 30-mile range using a very moderate electric assist and pedaling a lot.

Of course, every high-end electric bike is nice but it all comes down to…is it worth the asking price? $6000 is the biggest negative this bike has, and unfortunately it will be insurmountable for most buyers.

GULP!

 

[D-Queued]

Ryder has apparently found an ingenious way to hide the batteries.

Aye, there's the rub.

Integrating a motor into a bicycle is trivial in comparison. Fueling it is the real problem.

Dave.

 

[fishtacos]

@Granville57 - referring to the Turbo as a "contraption" is pretty pejorative. I've ridden them, and they're awesome. By far the best pedal-assist e-bike I've ever seen or ridden. Try riding it next time instead of not giving it much attention.

But - see that black section of the downtube? That's the battery. See the big black thing on the hub? That's the motor. Now, take all that and miniaturize it enough so that no one notices it, connect it to a control switch that no one notices with a wire that no one notices, and make it quiet enough that no one notices. Then put it in a race bike and you've got Ryder's alleged hub motor.

And then explain why someone has gone and done ALL of that and not tried to market a version of it for commuters.

No one would laugh at Ryder more than me for getting busted with a motor, but it just doesn't add up.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

@Granville57 - referring to the Turbo as a "contraption" is pretty pejorative. I've ridden them, and they're awesome. By far the best pedal-assist e-bike I've ever seen or ridden. Try riding it next time instead of not giving it much attention.

But - see that black section of the downtube? That's the battery. See the big black thing on the hub? That's the motor. Now, take all that and miniaturize it enough so that no one notices it, connect it to a control switch that no one notices with a wire that no one notices, and make it quiet enough that no one notices. Then put it in a race bike and you've got Ryder's alleged hub motor.

And then explain why someone has gone and done ALL of that and not tried to market a version of it for commuters.

No one would laugh at Ryder more than me for getting busted with a motor, but it just doesn't add up.

The bike in the article I linked is from 2005 - 9 years ago. Tech can improve dramatically over that period.

Di2 is pretty much hidden from view. Been around for a few years now.

SRAM are bringing out wireless gear changers. BTLE has been around for a few years.

As for why there's no marketing done - how about it adds 10W here and there, which is 2% for a pro rider. Not a lot, but enough over 3 weeks to do some damage. Not sellable to general public, however.

 

[Parker]

But - see that black section of the downtube? That's the battery. See the big black thing on the hub? That's the motor. Now, take all that and miniaturize it enough so that no one notices it, connect it to a control switch that no one notices with a wire that no one notices, and make it quiet enough that no one notices. Then put it in a race bike and you've got Ryder's alleged hub motor.

This is typical speculative BS. You can imagine it can be smaller and less visible, therefore because you can imagine it, it must be possible, have been done and adopted. Three giant steps of faith with no support.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think there's a perception here that a motor needs to generate 250W all day to be of assistance. The average power for a protected rider on a typical stage is pretty low - down around 220W or so.

If you can squeeze 15-30 minutes of 10-20W out of a small motor, that's enough to make a significant difference in a stage.

 

[fishtacos]

The motor/battery/switch/connections don't have to give much power to be helpful in a pro race - but it has to be essentially invisible. That's the problem with a hub-based motor, which is what this thread was originally about.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but for no-one to notice it...ever... well, it's very improbable, to say the least.


A hub motor is the least likely solution - the BB motors that were claimed by Cassani, et al, are much more likely and much easier to hide, until you start x-raying bikes.

 

[MarkvW]

I think there's a perception here that a motor needs to generate 250W all day to be of assistance. The average power for a protected rider on a typical stage is pretty low - down around 220W or so.

If you can squeeze 15-30 minutes of 10-20W out of a small motor, that's enough to make a significant difference in a stage.

But then you have to haul that extra dead weight around for the rest of the stage...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

But then you have to haul that extra dead weight around for the rest of the stage...

Some bikes have to add weight to make the UCI legal limit of 6.8kg. They use SRMs etc with no weight penalty. The entire bike is "dead weight" that is hauled around.

In our hypotheical hub motor + battery there's little to no rotating weight, it's mostly static. Bikes are ridiculously light already.

 

[kingjr]

trying to analyse Contador and Moto-Doping.

Trying to reason why would he do it today but not yesterday, or when did he start tis bike switching business.....

We know Contador is a doper. Do you think he would take loads of banned substance but say no to a motor in the rear wheel of his bike? I dont.

Maybe, maybe not, but what does that have to do with my post

I mean the question wasn't whether Contador would say no to a motor, it was whether he used one today.

 

[Granville57]

@Granville57 - referring to the Turbo as a "contraption" is pretty pejorative.

Only, perhaps, if you're the desiginer/engineer.

What's with all the sensitivity around this forum lately?

Try riding it next time instead of not giving it much attention.

OK, do you work for Specialized? You're losing me here. It's $6,000.00 and as far as I can tell, the very concept of these bikes contradicts one of the main reasons I ride in the first place.

No one would laugh at Ryder more than me for getting busted with a motor, but it just doesn't add up.

I hope you realized that I had moved on from the discussion of Ryder (inline with GoodTime's suggestion of an entirely new thread, one based on motorization in general, and not Ryder's controversy in particular) and in no way was suggesting that Ryder was using a smaller version of Specialized's technology. I've no idea if Ryder was using a motor or not, nor have I once in this entire thread suggested that he was (at least not with even the slightest degree of seriousness). But I do find the technological possibilities interesting.

 

[fishtacos]

Only, perhaps, if you're the desiginer/engineer.

No, but A "desiginer"/engineer... Don't worry - in a totally different sport.

I was just very impressed with that "bike" after having seen some of the e-bike junk that's on the market for a couple thousand dollars. It's not my cycling cup of tea, either, but if I was a bike-commuter, I'd be seriously thinking about it.

The possibilities are interesting, but I'm aiming for the realistic side of things, not the arena of wild speculation. If there are motors on some of the pro's bikes, I want to know about it.

 

[MacRoadie]

Ryder has apparently found an ingenious way to hide the batteries.

No doubt the motors and batteries on the bikes shown in the article are huge but, the article is 9 years old, and we know how fast technology evolves these days. Also:

In reality, the 1000W X-motors that Tidalforce was pushing to the military gobble amp-hours like popcorn. When leaned on hard, they will run the little hub battery pack down in as little as 6-8 miles, or 15-20 minutes!

So I'm wondering what a motor and battery putting out maybe 1/10th or even 1/20th of the power, with nine additional years of R&D might look like.

I'm not quite ready to drink the CoolAid yet, but I'm also not willing to discard the possibility that a miniaturized motor (either in the BB shell or in a hub designed to look like, say, a PowerTap) doesn't exist somewhere. Is it in a bike? Still a pretty big leap.

 

[Granville57]

If there are motors on some of the pro's bikes, I want to know about it.

As do I. But I am equally curious about what types of motors could be put to use in the near future, but for a few evolutionary steps.

 

[Granville57]

I'm not quite ready to drink the CoolAid yet, but I'm also not willing to discard the possibility that a miniaturized motor (either in the BB shell or in a hub designed to look like, say, a PowerTap) doesn't exist somewhere. Is it in a bike? Still a pretty big leap.

And with electronic shifting thrown into the mix, not to mention on-bike cameras, one has to admit that there are at least "camouflage" possibilities that simply didn't exist even as recently as a couple of years ago (as far as what's allowable on a pro bike in competition). Be it for power supplies or other aspects of an "assisted" bike, the more electronic technology that is allowed to be attached to a bike, the more avenues available for corruption of that technology.

 

[fishtacos]

Just looked at the infamous "Gruber Assist" motor again:

http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.html

And asked a couple of EEs who specialize in electric motors what they think of scaling down a motor like this. 40W would be plenty for 10 minutes... all you'd need to do is come up with some wireless switches so you wouldn't have a mystery wire coming from the handlebars. And hope they didn't x-ray the bike.

 

[Oldman]

Just looked at the infamous "Gruber Assist" motor again:

http://www.vivax-assist.com/en/produkte/vivax-assist-4-0/vivax-assist_4-0.html

And asked a couple of EEs who specialize in electric motors what they think of scaling down a motor like this. 40W would be plenty for 10 minutes... all you'd need to do is come up with some wireless switches so you wouldn't have a mystery wire coming from the handlebars. And hope they didn't x-ray the bike.

So anyone want to explain to me why he'd have a "motor" on while coasting on a descent between other riders? Perhaps a very sophisticate KERS F 1 technology thing...oh wait. That works on braking and the motor is off. Never mind Foil Hat Folks.

 

[Granville57]

So anyone want to explain to me why he'd have a "motor" on while coasting on a descent between other riders?

C'mon dude, are you suggesting that you haven't committed to memory the previous 63 pages?

No one is suggesting that he was "motoring" downhill. It was only ever suggested that such a device may have been activated upon impact.

But we've moved on since then. Join us as we travel to the future. The cheats of tomorrow will be exposed today.

 

[Advancedone]

An interesting subject, and as others have said one that has surely crossed the minds of riders and teams in the past, even if it hasn't been able to be put into action YET. I'm not sure either way.

As far as the battery supply goes. What is the one thing that riders get given all the time during a stage and get to toss when not needed. Their bidons.
How easy would it be to have a battery in a bottle, it gets passed to the rider who slides it into his holder, it touches some contacts and you have power. When its finished they'd just need to make sure it was passed back to a team car or member and not chucked into the crowd.

The switching would just use a button on electric shifters or under the bar tape. Switches can be tiny.

I'd like to think no one cheats, but there wouldn't be a clinic if everyone played by the rules.

 

[D-Queued]

An interesting subject, and as others have said one that has surely crossed the minds of riders and teams in the past, even if it hasn't been able to be put into action YET. I'm not sure either way.

As far as the battery supply goes. What is the one thing that riders get given all the time during a stage and get to toss when not needed. Their bidons.
How easy would it be to have a battery in a bottle, it gets passed to the rider who slides it into his holder, it touches some contacts and you have power. When its finished they'd just need to make sure it was passed back to a team car or member and not chucked into the crowd.

The switching would just use a button on electric shifters or under the bar tape. Switches can be tiny.

I'd like to think no one cheats, but there wouldn't be a clinic if everyone played by the rules.

Ok, you get rid of the extra battery weight.

But, you still get to carry ~ 1kg+ of dead weight from the motor.

So why would they carry that weight around when they throw away empty bidons weighing only a few grams? Or the Garmin guy who threw away Dan Martin's jacket because he didn't want to carry it.

Can a bicycle be configured with a motor in a relatively unobtrusive way?

Yes.

Would it be practical for a five hour stage race?

Not a chance.

Not unless you are into some bizarre kind of resistance training.

Even the example provided above has technical issues beyond the considerable weight disadvantage (think 2+ kg/5+ lb). That is a lot of extra weight, and the battery is available for maybe an hour - then you need a new one.

That particular motor is optimized for 60 rpm and disengages above 90. How many cyclists are spinning 60 rpm all day in stage race?

So now we need a motor that has some kind of universal gearing that can provide optimal power across a wide cadence range. And, we need weightless batteries that last five hours.

No problem. Think I will just go invent something and schedule a few breakthroughs in fundamental electrochemistry.

Dave.

 

[Granville57]

So why would they carry that weight around when they throw away empty bidons weighing only a few grams?

You're over thinking this. I believe the suggestion was that the "battery bottle" would only be handed to the rider for a short period of time, during which it would be used to power-up the motor.

Once the accelerated advantage had been put to use, off goes the battery, back goes a conventional water bottle.







Although I do wonder where else you could hide a power supply in plain sight?

 

[kielbasa]

Ok, you get rid of the extra battery weight.

But, you still get to carry ~ 1kg+ of dead weight from the motor.

So why would they carry that weight around when they throw away empty bidons weighing only a few grams? Or the Garmin guy who threw away Dan Martin's jacket because he didn't want to carry it.

<snip>
Dave.

Under UCI current bike weight rules a 3 lb motor and battery should not be too much on a 12 lb bike. We have the technology and we have those willing to cheat. If it isn't happening yet, it's probably because it seems over the top or unmanly, even for the dopers. Sticking in a needle may be viewed as a necessity or a right of passage into the pro ranks, but using a motor, taking a shortcut, or jumping on a train is something that an amateur triathlete would do. Not cool.