Ryders crash -motor?

[Dear Wiggo]

Apologies for not reading every single post, but

a mechanic and a rider can operate independently from the team.

If a rider asks a mechanic late one night to go and get some more test for his recovery, or suggests he fit a special, slightly heavier wheel to his bike for the stage, it's something I can see happening quite easily, under all the other riders' and team employees' noses.

It won't end a team, IMO.

 

[MBotero]

Yes make it happen PLEASE.

I'm with you. Can't stand the Garmin Dopers. And Hesjedal with his ridiculous goggles and ugly *** riding style is the worst.

Wow,you support the clean Tinkoff-Saxo and you got some kinda of problems with the Garmin Dopers,this is funny,can't be funnier then this.What's the matter,the ugly riding style guy crashed your dreams yesterday by beating,the good looking glasses,great riding style,cleaner Tinkoff-Saxo guy.It must have been a hard day for you,Hesjedal and Froome striking in the same dayDon't worry Contador will strike back.

 

[sniper]

some of the naivity here is baffling.
let's see, reasons why Ryder isn't using a motor:
1. JV wouldn't joke about it
2. UCI are testing
3. Ryder wouldn't have sucked so hard after stage 7
4. Ryder wouldn't have won yesterday (again, because UCI are checking)
5. Ryder, if motorized, would soon be ostracized by the peloton, because it's a morally unacceptable form of cheating.

Some arguments sound no less naive than the ones we've heard in defence of Armstrong and Froome. Remember those saying (sometime before Floyd spoke out) that Lance must be clean otherwise he wouldn't make his return to cycling and risk getting caught?

Forget about the footage, imo it doesn't show anything one way or another. But the above arguments are just baffling.

I lol'd. Also, given the rampant corruption in cycling, I understand why people think Ryder's bike might contain a motor. But does anyone think JV would be so jokey about it on twitter if this was the case. C'mon. I would not be the least bit surprised if the guy was doped, but yeah, no motor.

Delgados, i'm not saying ryder had a motor (i surely don't think the footage proofs it), but to think he didn't because of something JV said on twitter? c'mon.
If Ryder dopes, JV may or may not know.
If Ryder is using a motor, JV may or may not know.
Doesnt mean anything one way or the other. (and he likely doesn't know in both cases, in fact i think he doesn't want to know what his riders are up to. He wants to know they won't get caught.)

and for some to ignore Cassani's and Boardman's warnings about motorization in the peloton also reeks of the dark era when warnings about EPO were ignored and/or shoved under the carpet.

all this is completely irrespective of whether Ryder used/uses a motor.

 

[sniper]

...
If we use the history of doping as a template, I could imagine some team mechanically altering one (or more) of their bikes, if they knew ahead of time what type of bike inspection to expect from the UCI.

Just as the long-repeatd mantra of "I never tested positive" has proven to be absolutely worthless, the fact that the UCI is checking bikes doesn't necessary mean that they are checking very thoroughly, or for more than one specific type of device. If a team says, "Well our bikes passed the UCI inspection, so obviously we aren't mechanically doping our equipment," it doesn't really tell us all that much.

good points

I think the risk of hoping to get away with it would be completely insane, but I wouldn't be shocked if someone were caught out in the near future.

i would be shocked (or at least surprised), because i don't think UCI would allow a motor-positive to see the light of day.

For Garmin to do it?
As has been mentioned, they'd be finished. Top to bottom. Never to return. The cycling media would create a firestorm far beyond anything that included the word "Lance."

See DearWiggo's post. More generally: with PEDs we too have a hard time telling if a guy like, say, Froome, has his team's consent or not, but that hardly has any bearing on the central question if Froome is using PEDs or not.

And again, i think any motor-positive would be very very bad for cycling in general (not just for an individual team), hence i don't think UCI would ever allow such a positive to happen.

I disagree with those who think the entire peloton wouldn't turn viciously against anyone caught doing such a thing. ESPECIALLY, if it resulted in the winning of races. I would compare it to the anger that erupts sometimes immediately after a dodgy sprint finish. Riders and managers both would be furious and vocal about it.

I'm not sure.
A. Rasmussen's tweet defending Ryder (with the most laughable of arguments) doesn't point in that direction at all.
And what to make of Cassani/Boardman's warnings and the lack of response to those warnings.

 

[Cycle Chic]

Granny ville

I agree with all of the above, but just to play devil's advocate for the fun of it...

yeh your posts in this thread are irritating....take your trolling some place else.

 

[hrotha]

About the testing, it's not comparable to doping, for the simple reason that when you dope you don't consciously go into tests if you're glowing. The whole point of doping is for it to be undetectable, and unless you screwed up, it will be. A physical motor is something that will definitely be noticed if someone takes a good look.

 

[Parker]

Apologies for not reading every single post, but

a mechanic and a rider can operate independently from the team.

If a rider asks a mechanic late one night to go and get some more test for his recovery, or suggests he fit a special, slightly heavier wheel to his bike for the stage, it's something I can see happening quite easily, under all the other riders' and team employees' noses.

It won't end a team, IMO.

While that may be possible, it won't stop the UCI stripping the team of their licence (this isn't a WADA matter) and a sponsor isn't going to stick around for a disgraced team that can't race (assuming the don't pull out immediately). Even if they managed to prove what you say beyond doubt, they'll still be finished - killed by a drawn out legal process.

 

[sniper]

About the testing, it's not comparable to doping, for the simple reason that when you dope you don't consciously go into tests if you're glowing. The whole point of doping is for it to be undetectable, and unless you screwed up, it will be. A physical motor is something that will definitely be noticed if someone takes a good look.

it's comparable to doping in many ways, e.g. in that it's cheating which will only be uncovered if the governing body wants it to be uncovered, and in that it's highly rewarding financially meaning athletes will be most tempted to experiment with it.
to the bold: sounds obvious and i haven't seen anybody stating differently.

 

[sniper]

While that may be possible, it won't stop the UCI stripping the team of their licence (this isn't a WADA matter) and a sponsor isn't going to stick around for a disgraced team that can't race (assuming the don't pull out immediately). Even if they managed to prove what you say beyond doubt, they'll still be finished - killed by a drawn out legal process.

you work for the UCI? otherwise i can only assume you're wildly speculating.
speculation is fine, if only it were plausible speculation, which i'm afraid it is not.
uci will not be interested in a motorization scandal at any point in time.
if they can, they will settle any suspicion of motorization behind tightly closed doors.

 

[Parker]

you work for the UCI? otherwise i can only assume you're wildly speculating.
speculation is fine, if only it were plausible speculation, which i'm afraid it is not.
uci will not be interested in a motorization scandal at any point in time.
if they can, they will settle any suspicion of motorization behind tightly closed doors.

Do you work for the UCI? Otherwise I can only assume that you are dismissing my wild speculation with ever wilder speculation.

(The bike checks aren't done behind closed doors - I've seen plenty of photos from bystanders on twitter - so if they want to a cover up they're not starting it off very well)

 

[Benotti69]

While that may be possible, it won't stop the UCI stripping the team of their licence (this isn't a WADA matter) and a sponsor isn't going to stick around for a disgraced team that can't race (assuming the don't pull out immediately). Even if they managed to prove what you say beyond doubt, they'll still be finished - killed by a drawn out legal process.

Why would the UCI if they discovered that a team is 'motor doping' do anything apart from do better x-rays of bikes?

UCI would be shooting the sport further in the foot then it already has over the years.

UCI is not in the business of damaging the sport. Garmin, if caught 'motor doping' would not get any public slaps but I guess Vaughters would be making a payment to some bank account somewhere handy for UCI officials...

Remember UCI does want to damage the sport. If it did there are a whole host of rules it could bring in tomorrow to kick out half those currently in the sport!

 

[Granville57]

yeh your posts in this thread are irritating....take your trolling some place else.

I haven't the slightest idea as to what you're even referring to.

But based on your own posting history, please don't confuse me for someone who actually cares about your opinion.

Any further discussion of this will have to be in the sidebar thread or elsewhere. I won't be responding to you in this thread.

 

[Granville57]

It won't end a team, IMO.

However, I think it would end JV's team.

Given his public posturing on this and so many other issues, I can't imagine how Garmin would survive such a maelstrom.

Also, hasn't JV stated in the past that a confirmed, doping positive (PEDs, etc) would be the end of the team? I may have to dig around for that but it was my understanding that if one of their rider's was ever busted, they would close up shop. Not necessarily just because of how damaged their "clean" reputation would become, but to adhere to their own pre-established standards.

One guy goes down, the whole operation goes down.

I'm sure he's talked about it on this forum, but I believe he's made those same statements to the outside world as well. But I'm not sure if it's a contracted policy of the team or just talk.

 

[Parker]

Why would the UCI if they discovered that a team is 'motor doping' do anything apart from do better x-rays of bikes?

UCI would be shooting the sport further in the foot then it already has over the years.

UCI is not in the business of damaging the sport. Garmin, if caught 'motor doping' would not get any public slaps but I guess Vaughters would be making a payment to some bank account somewhere handy for UCI officials...

Remember UCI does want to damage the sport. If it did there are a whole host of rules it could bring in tomorrow to kick out half those currently in the sport!

Why would they do nothing then? Teams disappear all the time. Destroying one to send out a strong deterrent to others is the best way to nip it in the bud.

If they tried to cover it up, it would just grow and until it can't be contained any more and they end up with a massive scandal. You can't flush a frame with a motor down a toilet when the cops come knocking. It would be bigger than doping. Far bigger.

You say that "UCI is not in the business of damaging the sport". Well a temporary cover up of something like this would be the quickest and most efficient way of doing just that.

 

[Cycle Chic]

I haven't the slightest idea as to what you're even referring to.

But based on your own posting history, please don't confuse me for someone who actually cares about your opinion.

Any further discussion of this will have to be in the sidebar thread or elsewhere. I won't be responding to you in this thread.

You,ve tried to derail the thread, posted 'funny' rhetoric, posted 'just for fun'....so leave the thread alone.

 

[Granville57]

A physical motor is something that will definitely be noticed if someone takes a good look.

But that's the catch, isn't it?

What constitutes "a good look"?

On paper, yes, it seems quite likely that a close inspection would reveal a hidden motor on a bike. But would it not also be consistent with UCI behavior to have someone x-ray a bottom bracket, looking for one specific thing, and look no further?

I agree that there shouldn't be a direct comparison between evading blood/urine tests, and evading mechanical inspection, because, as was stated previously, there is no half-life on a motor (as far as we know).

That being said, another big risk, (I would imagine) with hidden motors, etc, would be the aftermath of a crash. We've seen carbon bikes break into pieces. It reminds a bit of the corked basebalbat incident involving Sammy Sosa. His bat broke open with the whole world watching, and lo and behold, he had an illegal bat with a corked center.

So there is a huge risk with installing a motor in a bike because it very well might end up on the tarmac in front of a camera (the motor that is, not just the bike).


But then again, Sammy Sosa faced a similar risk.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Also, hasn't JV stated in the past that a confirmed, doping positive (PEDs, etc) would be the end of the team?

JV has written a lot of stuff. I don't believe much of any of it, including this. It's akin to Brailsford's, "I nearly quit" statement re: the Rob Hayles episode or Wiggo's, "I wouldn't dope coz family" claims.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

So there is a huge risk with installing a motor in a bike because it very well might end up on the tarmac in front of a camera (the motor that is, not just the bike).

Far, far less risk IMO. Riders are spread over a km or more, often up to 30 minutes adrift. Cars are usually on the scene pretty quick. I don't think it would be impossible to see something amiss, but when broadcast quality video cameras give us the drivel we were analysing for Ryder's wayward bicycle, I don't think Joe Blogs is going to get too much more detail to be honest.

 

[Granville57]

Now I'm wondering just how much legal authority does the UCI have in regards to inspecting equipment?

Could they seize a bike and take it away for further analysis?

Could they confiscate the entire stock of wheels from any given team in order to search for hub mechanisms?

Would race organizers be able to get police cooperation for such an invasion?

I can't imagine someone like Tinkoff allowing his equipment truck to be raided, but since this falls outside of any national laws (as far as I know) regarding PEDs, etc, are their limits to what the UCI or other authorities could do in terms of enforcing "bike doping"?

I suppose this would fall under the category of "sporting fraud" but I'm not clear on which countries have the strictest laws, and how they might be applied to mechanical issues.

 

[Benotti69]

Why would they do nothing then? Teams disappear all the time. Destroying one to send out a strong deterrent to others is the best way to nip it in the bud.

Got an examples of past "send out a strong deterrent to others"?

If they tried to cover it up, it would just grow and until it can't be contained any more and they end up with a massive scandal. You can't flush a frame with a motor down a toilet when the cops come knocking. It would be bigger than doping. Far bigger.

UCI dont care about cheating. They react when required, hence x-raying bikes.

You say that "UCI is not in the business of damaging the sport". Well a temporary cover up of something like this would be the quickest and most efficient way of doing just that.

Like i said it never stopped them before. Cycling is known as the doping sport, but UCI have not decided to end that perception by becoming the hardest hitting sport for anti doping! Nah SSDD.......

 

[sniper]

...
If they tried to cover it up, it would just grow and until it can't be contained any more and they end up with a massive scandal.

we haven't seen that happen before, have we.
you keep on ignoring recent history, for whatever odd reason.

Why would the UCI if they discovered that a team is 'motor doping' do anything apart from do better x-rays of bikes?

UCI would be shooting the sport further in the foot then it already has over the years.

UCI is not in the business of damaging the sport. Garmin, if caught 'motor doping' would not get any public slaps but I guess Vaughters would be making a payment to some bank account somewhere handy for UCI officials...

Remember UCI does want to damage the sport. If it did there are a whole host of rules it could bring in tomorrow to kick out half those currently in the sport!

good post, very well put, though it should be common sense by now, especially to a qualified, well-informed poster like parker.

 

[Master50]

Got an examples of past "send out a strong deterrent to others"?
Like i said it never stopped them before. Cycling is known as the doping sport, but UCI have not decided to end that perception by becoming the hardest hitting sport for anti doping! Nah SSDD.......

Could you offer another sport or any sport that meets this expectation you have?

 

[Benotti69]

Could you offer another sport or any sport that meets this expectation you have?

yeah on another sporting forum.

 

[blackcat]

irony, the brouhaha prolly spurs Ryder to win a stage in the Vuelta.

nothing on the motor yes, motor no, debate.

 

[Master50]

yeah on another sporting forum.

Funny! what sport is it on that other forum?