That may be one of weakest arguments I've read on this site
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Damn, I was really proud of it. Almost showed it to my mom.
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Again, you cannot be serious. Cian? Really? Like.. really? Come on man. I know you dislike Jumbo and Jonas and what not in the wake of what happened with Primoz, but come on bro.
Is it unreasonable to suggest that Blobloblo should help Kuss?
Oh, I understood his post as Wout should domestique for Cian. I realize that was probably not the way it was intended. But no, that's not unreasonable at all of course.
It's not about 'deserves' and it's not about my personal feelings. It's about Visma hedging their bet for if Sepp's GC bid fails, because for the time being at least he's a one-hit wonder who has never come into a Grand Tour as the protected leader, and who hasn't had a great season due to circumstances outside of his control.
It's totally reasonable to have a plan B before the race begins.
@Libertine Seguros
Usually you dedicate a team leader for a GT race and that is plan A. If it fails for whatever reasons involved you switch to plan B. You tend to wait for at least until plan A fails. Here we have a situation on where plan B was set in motion before the race even started, although Kuss won a Vuelta prep stage race.
So what are you saying then, Visma is going into this race without a dedicated leader as there is like zero chance of succeeding? They already forfeited it? Did they tell Kuss about that or would you like to be the one?
Pun intended.
@tobydawq
I see. Stardom prevents it and Sepp can't return the favour in classics.
@Valv.Piti
Obviously we are determining on who is then there to help Sepp, provisional list being:
Usually you dedicate a team leader for a GT race and that is plan A. If it fails for whatever reasons involved you switch to plan B. You tend to wait for at least until plan A fails. Here we have a situation on where plan B was set in motion before the race even started, although Kuss won a Vuelta prep stage race.
So what are you saying then, Visma is going into this race without a dedicated leader as there is like zero chance of succeeding? They already forfeited it? Did they tell Kuss about that or would you like to be the one?
Pun intended.
@tobydawq
I see. Stardom prevents it and Sepp can't return the favour in classics.
@Valv.Piti
Obviously we are determining on who is then there to help Sepp, provisional list being:
- GESINK Robert
- TULETT Ben
- VAN AERT Wout
- KUSS Sepp
- KRUIJSWIJK Steven
- VAN BAARLE Dylan
- UIJTDEBROEKS Cian
So if you have a leader, as far as you're concerned, stagehunting and free roles cease to exist? You do know teams can and frequently do have multiple concurrent goals?
In fact, free roles and stagehunting were precisely why Sepp Kuss is able to go into this race as a team leader in the first place.
He is retrying after the season and Robert likely got a green light, to go after that stage win. Was close last time but Remco stomped on it. I just hope that Rogla doesn't pull a stunt like that if not absolutely needed, Robert being in leaders jersey or something like that.
Would you write something like that if we would be talking about Pogi? So besides Wout stardom, do you expect for Sepp to be protected by other five(ish) riders on this race, or not?
So you think Sepp is as established a leader as Pogačar?
The whole point is that he's not a proven GT leader, because this is the first time he is going in as a leader, so they have contingency plans. The majority of the team are there to support him (and van Aert likely will if required anyway), but they have the scope to do other things because they can't be sure at this stage if Kuss will be able to back up last year's performance now that the pressure of expectation is on him and given that until Burgos he had had a somewhat disrupted season. It takes a bit of pressure off Kuss for one thing, because the team isn't totally reliant on him, as if van Aert wins a couple of stages, they've had a decent race even if Kuss' GC ambitions fail. Hell, it could even be misdirection to try to encourage other teams to underestimate him again.
Do you remember Wout van Aert during Jonas' Tour wins? He kinda did his own thing, and sought out stage wins, and then helped out when it suited the team. That's all they're suggesting. Unless you also thought Visma taking Wout van Aert to the Tour was an act of gross disrespect to Vingegaard.
This debate is silly anyway for a couple of reasons.
Firstly, it is not 2013 anymore. You don't go to a GT with one sole leader and ban everybody else on your team from trying anything . Nowadays the grand tours are dominated by a monopoly of 2-3 teams. They are so much better than the rest that they can balance individual ambitions of multiple riders with winning the overall with their leader
Looks at Vingegard first tour win and how WVA could easily go and do his pozzato stage wins, whilst working well for Vingegard. Same for Laporte.
And now if you want to top 5 the tour de france you're better off to go there as a helper for Pogacar, than to get 7 riders supporting you at jayxo or cofidis.
So Visma will either be flying, in which case kuss will contest the victory and WVA will be strong enough to do great support work whilst getting his 2 pozzato wins, or they won't be flying, and in that case there is nothing that any domestique could do to help kuss get close to contesting the overall win, as he just won't be in contention
An entirely different point:
It's the Vuelta. There is no 5 stressful crosswind stages before the first mountain, where you need 7 guys around your frail crash prone leader (naming no names) acting as bodyguards
The race is more chilled and there is pico vuellercas on stage 4. Also stages 6 and 8 have climbs to finish. We will know fairly early whether kuss is a favourite or not. If he is not, there is no point to Belge pozzato dragging him around for 8th place. He will get his freedom
Firstly, it is not 2013 anymore. You don't go to a GT with one sole leader and ban everybody else on your team from trying anything . Nowadays the grand tours are dominated by a monopoly of 2-3 teams. They are so much better than the rest that they can balance individual ambitions of multiple riders with winning the overall with their leader
Looks at Vingegard first tour win and how WVA could easily go and do his pozzato stage wins, whilst working well for Vingegard. Same for Laporte.
And now if you want to top 5 the tour de france you're better off to go there as a helper for Pogacar, than to get 7 riders supporting you at jayxo or cofidis.
So Visma will either be flying, in which case kuss will contest the victory and WVA will be strong enough to do great support work whilst getting his 2 pozzato wins, or they won't be flying, and in that case there is nothing that any domestique could do to help kuss get close to contesting the overall win, as he just won't be in contention
An entirely different point:
It's the Vuelta. There is no 5 stressful crosswind stages before the first mountain, where you need 7 guys around your frail crash prone leader (naming no names) acting as bodyguards
The race is more chilled and there is pico vuellercas on stage 4. Also stages 6 and 8 have climbs to finish. We will know fairly early whether kuss is a favourite or not. If he is not, there is no point to Belge pozzato dragging him around for 8th place. He will get his freedom
@Libertine Seguros
Is such amount of doubt even healthy? I mean then better to just appoint different GC leader and believe in him instead? To for example finish in top 10? I mean sure Sepp, you are our GC leader, but we all know you don't stand a chance, so Wout is doing his own thing, the rest likely won't pull through either. You do understand?
I see what you are doing here. You envisioned yourself as a DS at Vuelta on where Sepp is the GC leader and you finally got your chance! Just a reminder, Sepp is packing, he will put his foot down, when pressed. He got his way with the likes of Rogla and Jonas. I doubt any other rider could achieve that.
@Ilmaestro99
Don't know about that one. At Tour 2024 Rogla, Pogi, Jonas and Remco, all went in the race like that. The same can be said for Giro 2024 and Pogi. So serious teams and serious attempts still consist of sole leadership and full team in support of the leader.
Is such amount of doubt even healthy? I mean then better to just appoint different GC leader and believe in him instead? To for example finish in top 10? I mean sure Sepp, you are our GC leader, but we all know you don't stand a chance, so Wout is doing his own thing, the rest likely won't pull through either. You do understand?
I see what you are doing here. You envisioned yourself as a DS at Vuelta on where Sepp is the GC leader and you finally got your chance! Just a reminder, Sepp is packing, he will put his foot down, when pressed. He got his way with the likes of Rogla and Jonas. I doubt any other rider could achieve that.
@Ilmaestro99
Don't know about that one. At Tour 2024 Rogla, Pogi, Jonas and Remco, all went in the race like that. The same can be said for Giro 2024 and Pogi. So serious teams and serious attempts still consist of sole leadership and full team in support of the leader.
Jumbo management continue the tradition of really sh*tty internal messaging. Sepp, who helps everyone win the big GT prizes including one of his own cannot rely on any assistance from Wout. That's one thing and Wout deserves his shot although winning stages at the Vuelta would seem to be a way down on his list. Help winning the WC RR would seem to be something he'd hope for.
And then they suggest Cian is free to share/supplant GT protection from Sepp for his own ambitions...or not if Sepp is in Red and Cian feels like helping? There has to be something wrong with the translation or all of these management guys should be fired. Irrespective of your allegiance to a particular rider this seems really STOOOPID.
Their whole strategy seemed to misuse the team. Jonas' current fitness is, IMO due to their rush to get him back in his lead role for sponsor dollars. Now the consequences of that fatigue are real and he is done for now. Or should be.
They could scarcely remember they overused Matteo to get results all season; including the Olympic RR where Wout rode more to keep tabs on Matteo than help Remco. Likewise with the other "teammates". At least they didn't have to respond to the old question of allegiance to trade teams over national squads. Just bad business for a big budget squad.
Not to wish Jonas any more pains on recovery but if it takes two years and Visma sidelines or discards him in the process he will have a major cheerleader from this corner beating Visma with another team.
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You do understand that Kuss won the Vuelta and earned the opportunity to go in as leader... by having the freedom to do things other than play bodyguard?
Why would the rest not pull through, have you just invented a conspiracy in your head for the team to undermine Kuss? Have you forgotten that they wilfully clipped the wings of two more proven, more established leaders - multiple GT winners no less - in order to give him that victory?
You do know that just because he's American doesn't mean Sepp Kuss is going to demand total subservience at all costs and become a sociopathic dictator like Lance Armstrong, right?
@Libertine Seguros
That's more like it. Bar Wout then he can count on other team members, as it should be. As for your question about leadership in general.
Who does Visma have beside Jonas and Sepp? It's ether one or the other, beyond that, who? That is if we are talking about targeting the overall or at minimum the podium at a GT race. Jorgenson?
That's more like it. Bar Wout then he can count on other team members, as it should be. As for your question about leadership in general.
Who does Visma have beside Jonas and Sepp? It's ether one or the other, beyond that, who? That is if we are talking about targeting the overall or at minimum the podium at a GT race. Jorgenson?
Just read in the Cian thread:
forum.cyclingnews.com
Cian got a green light to race for himself and targeting top 10. So i guess this settles the debates, then. Visma is all in, individually speaking.
Page 66 - Teams & Riders - Cian Uijtdebroeks - From the wetlands to the top of cycling
Page 66 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
forum.cyclingnews.com
Cian got a green light to race for himself and targeting top 10. So i guess this settles the debates, then. Visma is all in, individually speaking.
VWA going for sprint type stages is hardly likely to affect Kuss's GC ambititons. This argument of unlimited support is another reason why top class sprinters can't get a Gig in a GT.
That you're being hypersensitive.
All I was saying was that just because Lance was a dictatorial presence on his team who demanded 100% subservience and loyalty at all times, doesn't mean that Sepp will be (and his personality would appear to suggest that it would be highly unlikely that he would be). This was using Armstrong for hyperbolic purposes because CyclistAbi was implying that Visma were committing some gross act of disrespect by letting van Aert have a free role and not committing the entire team to the sole purpose of domestiquing for Kuss.
@Libertine Seguros
On the other hand and if we leave Wout out of it, not committing any team member, as it looks like, that's rather strange move too? Even for you, president of G.R.O.S.S.?
I mean what are we even doing here then?
On the other hand and if we leave Wout out of it, not committing any team member, as it looks like, that's rather strange move too? Even for you, president of G.R.O.S.S.?
I mean what are we even doing here then?
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