Teams & Riders Sepp Kuss is the next Sepp Kuss thread

[Libertine Seguros]

National pride is the most base level and problematic level of pride imaginable.

Good post.

 

[ManicJack]

Good post.

Nice try. I have way less National Pride than you would suspect. I just have very little respect for those who need to degenerate others on a regular basis.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Nice try. I have way less National Pride than you would suspect. I just have very little respect for those who need to degenerate others on a regular basis.

I am also way less anti-American than you would suspect. But you love reading implications into everything I say and going on the offensive. Here, have a basket of puppies.

 

[Potomac]

I like pointy eared puppies, not floppy eared.

 

[ManicJack]

But you love reading implications into everything I say

Don't have to read anything into things that are explicitly stated.

 

[Valv.Piti]

What a shitshow of a thread. Some people don't really understand cycling at times, it seems. What Visma is doing is simply just PERFECTLY reasonable. This all your eggs in one basket is so stupid unless its Pogacar almost, and even Pog was doing leadsout like an absolute lunatic for friggin Molano in the Giro.

 

[ManicJack]

What a shitshow of a thread. Some people don't really understand cycling at times, it seems.

Could be said for the majority of the forum.

 

[Hugh Januss]

What a shitshow of a thread. Some people don't really understand cycling at times, it seems. What Visma is doing is simply just PERFECTLY reasonable. This all your eggs in one basket is so stupid unless its Pogacar almost, and even Pog was doing leadsout like an absolute lunatic for friggin Molano in the Giro.

I have managed to stay out of this nonsense up until now, but what the hell. I see no problem with leaving options open and no problem with Wout going for stage wins and maybe even points jersey, but why all the detailed public explanations of just how much or how little any teammates will be expected to support the defending champion. However he got there. What's next? The team to announce that Kruijswijk is also free to take his own chances for GC and Van Baarle to chase stages as well? Or maybe this is all smoke screen and they are fully behind trying to win with Kuss?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Don't have to read anything into things that are explicitly stated.

If I've explicitly stated "I hate America" at some point, then fine, but otherwise it's all inference, and since you're clearly reading posts - not just mine but plenty of others, on a variety of subject - with defined expectations coming in, I just see a hell of a lot of use of confirmation bias.

I have managed to stay out of this nonsense up until now, but what the hell. I see no problem with leaving options open and no problem with Wout going for stage wins and maybe even points jersey, but why all the detailed public explanations of just how much or how little any teammates will be expected to support the defending champion. However he got there. What's next? The team to announce that Kruijswijk is also free to take his own chances for GC and Van Baarle to chase stages as well? Or maybe this is all smoke screen and they are fully behind trying to win with Kuss?

Now this, on the other hand, is a very fair criticism of Visma's pre-race plans. Unless it is a way to try to get some pressure off of Kuss' shoulders or encourage others to underestimate him by directing their attention to other riders, all the separate public announcements for each rider's role is both ridiculous and overkill, even if those roles may not be.

 

[Oldermanish]

I like pointy eared puppies, not floppy eared.

another Labrador PUPPYIST! When will the divisiveness end?

 

[Oldermanish]

What a shitshow of a thread. Some people don't really understand cycling at times, it seems. What Visma is doing is simply just PERFECTLY reasonable. This all your eggs in one basket is so stupid unless its Pogacar almost, and even Pog was doing leadsout like an absolute lunatic for friggin Molano in the Giro.

I totally agree on strategy. Being cagey is legit. It's their pointless messaging that suggests they lack gratitude for what a team member has done. No nationality is seemingly the motivation; just bad marketing.

Lest you think I'm singling out one team or DS; I feel equally about rider treatment towards LeFevre and Vaughters. They can be pointlessly pretentious authority idiots, too.

 

[CyclistAbi]

What a shitshow of a thread. Some people don't really understand cycling at times, it seems. What Visma is doing is simply just PERFECTLY reasonable. This all your eggs in one basket is so stupid unless its Pogacar almost, and even Pog was doing leadsout like an absolute lunatic for friggin Molano in the Giro.

Movistar is just perfect.

 

[YavorD]

@CyclistAbi If Kuss is good enough for a podium contender the team will support him. Just because WVA (and Cian perhaps) gets a green light to do his own things doesn't mean they won't support Kuss in a crucial moments.
If Kuss is not good enough to fight for the win/podium but is good enough for 5th-ish he can do it even on his own. Yet he'll get support.
If Kuss is lower top 10/not even in top 10 then all the support is useless anyway and the team is better off figuring for stage wins with the other riders.

How good Kuss is will be clear by the end of week one and he doesn't need everyone on his disposal for week one.

 

[Peter von]

@CyclistAbi If Kuss is good enough for a podium contender the team will support him. Just because WVA (and Cian perhaps) gets a green light to do his own things doesn't mean they won't support Kuss in a crucial moments.
If Kuss is not good enough to fight for the win/podium but is good enough for 5th-ish he can do it even on his own. Yet he'll get support.
If Kuss is lower top 10/not even in top 10 then all the support is useless anyway and the team is better off figuring for stage wins with the other riders.

How good Kuss is will be clear by the end of week one and he doesn't need everyone on his disposal for week one.

yeah cycling is often a very simple sport.

If Kuss has the strength he'll have the support. It's tricky if Kuss and Cian are roughly same level and the DS has to make decisions (2023 says hello).

 

[CyclistAbi]

@YavorD

OK then. Sepp, we have full confidence in you and you are our leader, but know that there are a whole lot of ifs involved. The list is too long so best not to bother you with it at this point, you just try to do your best and maybe we will notice you being there. Basically the same thing as on how we do it with Jonas. Off we go then, if we go, that is.

 

[YavorD]

@YavorD

OK then. Sepp, we have full confidence in you and you are our leader, but know that there are a whole lot of ifs involved. The list is too long so best not to bother you with it at this point, you just try to do your best and maybe we will notice you being there. Basically the same thing as on how we do it with Jonas. Off we go then, if we go, that is.

But Kuss won't be left on his own. Kruijswijk, Valter, Van Baaarle and Gesink will help him of help is needed. By the time he may need a full team support it will be clear if he's good enough to justify it.
Why do you act as if Kuss is left to do everything on his own?

And yes, that's how they do it with Jonas. They ride for WVA in some stages and he rides for Vingegaard when needed. And it worked just fine, Vingegaard won 2 Tours.
But I guess that the Tour is rather small stage race for you because Roglic hasn't won it yet and such a tactic won't work on a big race like the Vuelta?

 

[CyclistAbi]

@YavorD

If we compare the most successful season Wout had at the Tout with his role now, it's like night and day. As for Sepp in need to prove it first, to be supported. This is exactly the question i raised. He shouldn't have to. IMHO. That is what leadership is, setting one, you trust them beforehand.

But OK, it is what it is.

 

[YavorD]

@YavorD

If we compare the most successful season Wout had at the Tout with his role now, it's like night and day. As for Sepp in need to prove it first, to be supported. This is exactly the question i raised. He shouldn't have to. IMHO. That is what leadership is, setting one, you trust them beforehand.

But OK, it is what it is.

Wait, what? I remember back in 2022 (after Vingegaard was stronger than Roglic on Dauphine) WVA with Jonas on his wheel during stage 4 had a gap over Pogacar, yet Van Aert dropped Vingegaard and won the stage. That prompt everyone here to claim Van Aert is selfish. Again on stage 6(?) he was in the break riding for himself. That didn't stop him to be absolutely crucial for Vingegaard when needed. Same will happen if Kuss is good enough. Helping Sepp Kuss and riding for his own chances isn't mutually exclusive.

And as I said Sepp has the support of 5 people in his team . And I repeat my question: Why do you act as if Sepp Kuss is left totally on his own??

 

[CyclistAbi]

Who said Wout is selfish? We sort of even agreed during the discussion, that OK, due to his stardom it's reasonable to expect a bit of freedom. But then it went on, other team members getting a green light to go for top 10. And it was even stated that OK, if Sepp does end up being in contention, then we will support him. It's like it's an afterthought.

This is just not leadership role then. Unless i guess it's still leadership if you lead yourself? All in all no, i don't buy in this Movistar tactics. It's basically just about wasting everybody time. We seen at the Tour, big 4, on how leadership at a GT is done. So this in my opinion isn't even discussable. On how a proper leadership role looks like in pro peloton. What we have here is more esoteric approach to it.

 

[Oldermanish]

yeah cycling is often a very simple sport.

If Kuss has the strength he'll have the support. It's tricky if Kuss and Cian are roughly same level and the DS has to make decisions (2023 says hello).

The differences that merit team support can be subtle and it may be decisions made on the road by these two; when it comes to actually making a winning move they may have to decide who attacks and actually win a stage or break an adversary. Sepp has done that in multiple GTs in service of others and defending his own interests. Hopefully they don't trip over the obligations and opportunities that arise; Visma must have a situational plan, no?

 

[Peter von]

The differences that merit team support can be subtle and it may be decisions made on the road by these two; when it comes to actually making a winning move they may have to decide who attacks and actually win a stage or break an adversary. Sepp has done that in multiple GTs in service of others and defending his own interests. Hopefully they don't trip over the obligations and opportunities that arise; Visma must have a situational plan, no?

idk. there can be hypothetical situations, but to me it's more likely that Visma can let the race play out and then see how strong their guys are and if they need to use the team more strategically for one of them.

at the early stages they will protect both and keep both in good positions... and then may let them fend for themselves the last 20 k because Wout needs to burn some doms.

 

[Oldermanish]

idk. there can be hypothetical situations, but to me it's more likely that Visma can let the race play out and then see how strong their guys are and if they need to use the team more strategically for one of them.

at the early stages they will protect both and keep both in good positions... and then may let them fend for themselves the last 20 k because Wout needs to burn some doms.

Visma can have a plan but it will be down to these two to initiate or react to aggression. Sepp has the experience; Cian has a license to attack. Hopefully Visma doesn't let the situation devolve into last year's clusterfart.

 

[Peter von]

Visma can have a plan but it will be down to these two to initiate or react to aggression. Sepp has the experience; Cian has a license to attack. Hopefully Visma doesn't let the situation devolve into last year's clusterfart.

No, they were lucky to have the three strongest dudes last year, so it didn't matter it took them most of the race to make a decision on how they wanted to cut that particular cake, luckily for them tho most people had fun blaming the riders.

 

[Oldermanish]

No, they were lucky to have the three strongest dudes last year, so it didn't matter it took them most of the race to make a decision on how they wanted to cut that particular cake, luckily for them tho most people had fun blaming the riders.

Visma was very lucky and clearly not smart with that strategy. I don't think it'll work twice with these two and Wout free-lancing. But it is only the Vuelta and Cian may be their idea of the next big thing.

 

[FroomeWagon]

Always the team player.